Coilovers on UAS airbags.

Hey VSC masters.

I did a little bit of searching and I only found 3 people with coilovers with air.

Grant
Solo
Shawnthemonster.

Grant's setup was basically - detatch the spring and directly replace the spring with the airbag without a UAS bracket - seems like it would move around a lot when you drive.

[img]http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2143/2080385414_18bfc1878e.jpg[/img]
[img]http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2197/2079600061_39f2b34855.jpg[/img]

Solo's setup was professional. UAS bags with coilovers. Brackets welded in place, perches snug. I'm not sure how the bag would not rattle when on the coilover though. It seems as though if he deflated the bags - the bag would just be shaking around not attatched to anything.

[img]http://www.s2lstudio.com/car/air_setup/images/_DSC7703.jpg[/img]
[img]http://www.s2lstudio.com/car/airsus/images/airsus_09.jpg[/img]

Shawn's - I didnt really look into it.


Any suggestions would help a lot!

I'm going to be putting UAS bags on Ksport coilovers. The front is a macphereson style strut with the bag over the strut. The rear is - I don't know what you call it, the shock and spring are in 2 different places. Non-macphereson.


Thanks!
-Grant.

That's called a strut and a bag for the rears. 

There's a few others, mainly LS400's with it. 


I think the trick is, to air up the bag all the way, and have that be your set ride height? then you can dump the bag for super lowness.

for me i would run the metal mountingplate on the bottom becuase the base of the bag is plastic.. 
 
and I would have my machinest at work make a mount that has treads like the coil have already that I could weld the perch and just trun the bag to bring it down or up.. that would keep it from rattleing..

fuck that metal mounting plate thing

if you set up your cloilover right, at full deflate and any point in between, the bag isnt loose with the weight of the car on it.

trust me
i will be doing it the same way again once i get some more uas bags for my subaru

The ID of the bag isnt going to change...the OD will. Your current Xb setup wont change
 
They(UAS) suggest using the brackets to keep the bags as centered as possible.
 
Get the basics down first...then try and do advanced stuff like[I] Yokotas13[/I]. :biggthumpup:
 
gotta crawl B4 ya walk :shrug:

i went without the mounting plate as well. i'm not sure about grant's setup but on mine the bag fit snug on the ridges of the spring perches. it wasn't going anywhere (even if my car ever actually saw the road), although i plan on doing what 808 suggested and have perch/bag mounts machined.

too late, im already the first uas ksports. lol jk. but no, seriously i really am.
for me and im pretty sure that ALMOST all ksport lower spring perch will be exactly 2.14" OD, meaning that the ID of the airbag bracket will slide perfectly over and youll have a very very snug fit. ill post a pic in a little. for me, it worked out perfect, and im sure it will work out perfect for you, because ksport x-references almost all of their parts, meaning that the spring diameters are all the same, just different lengths and spring rates, so that they can use 1 type of locking perches for all of their coilovers. if unsure, just call autoline industries and have them spec out your coilovers.
goodluck
Charley
k. look at the pic, notice the spring perches that are supposed to hold up the spring. well, the upper ring was designed so that it will hold the spring snug. and for uas, its a perfect slice of heaven.  but when you receive it, there will be a rubber grommet type of noise silencer that will need to be removed. 
goodluck
[IMG]http://i272.photobucket.com/albums/jj195/AutoLuxLexES/CharleysLexus016.jpg[/IMG]

What coils work with UAS bags?

[QUOTE=eight08customs;195375]for me i would run the metal mountingplate on the bottom becuase the base of the bag is plastic.. 
 
and I would have my machinest at work make a mount that has treads like the coil have already that I could weld the perch and just trun the bag to bring it down or up.. that would keep it from rattleing..[/QUOTE]

The caps in the bag is actually made out of die casted alum.  I would highly recommend running some type of bracket that way if you jack up the car and deflate the bags the bag will stay centered on the strut.  If the bag gets crooked on the struts say one side is ontop of the spring nut adjuster and the other hanging off the edge it will tear the inner bellow.  

Another thing that i would worry about is if your spring pearches are at a taper on the top, when you drop the car down it could "open" up the pipe and cause the inner bellow to get ripped by the pipe because your basically forcing a wedge inside the bag's center pipe.

The main purpose of the brackets it to keep the bag centered onto the shock and to act like a bump stop allowing the pipe to sit between the brackets when fully compressed to ensure that the inner bellow doesn't get crushed.

With the weight down on the car you shouldn't have any issues of the bags moving around.

Here is some more pictures of coilovers with our bags that a company called Mason Tech has made for the VW's.
[IMG]http://www.mason-tech.com/cw3/Assets/product_expanded/billetmount_ex.jpg[/IMG]

[QUOTE=iSuxeL;195454]What coils work with UAS bags?[/QUOTE]

Any coilover that has a shock body of 2.14 or smaller

[QUOTE=DriftGirl;195401]The ID of the bag isnt going to change...the OD will. Your current Xb setup wont change
 
They(UAS) suggest using the brackets to keep the bags as centered as possible.
 
Get the basics down first...then try and do advanced stuff like[I] Yokotas13[/I]. :biggthumpup:
 
gotta crawl B4 ya walk :shrug:[/QUOTE]


Werd - I got the basic UAS setup working already. I think it's time to go lower with coilovers :)

[QUOTE=Yokotas13;195399]fuck that metal mounting plate thing

if you set up your cloilover right, at full deflate and any point in between, the bag isnt loose with the weight of the car on it.

trust me
i will be doing it the same way again once i get some more uas bags for my subaru[/QUOTE]

I believe you. But I'd much rather use those metal brackets. They keep the bag centered as possible.


[QUOTE=charley240sx;195432][IMG]http://i272.photobucket.com/albums/jj195/AutoLuxLexES/CharleysLexus016.jpg[/IMG][/QUOTE]

That's freakin' gangster. Thanks for the input and picture.



[QUOTE=Universal Air;195464]The caps in the bag is actually made out of die casted alum.  I would highly recommend running some type of bracket that way if you jack up the car and deflate the bags the bag will stay centered on the strut.  If the bag gets crooked on the struts say one side is ontop of the spring nut adjuster and the other hanging off the edge it will tear the inner bellow.  

Another thing that i would worry about is if your spring pearches are at a taper on the top, when you drop the car down it could "open" up the pipe and cause the inner bellow to get ripped by the pipe because your basically forcing a wedge inside the bag's center pipe.

The main purpose of the brackets it to keep the bag centered onto the shock and to act like a bump stop allowing the pipe to sit between the brackets when fully compressed to ensure that the inner bellow doesn't get crushed.

With the weight down on the car you shouldn't have any issues of the bags moving around.[/QUOTE]


Do you guys make a special bracket for tuner type coilovers with aero sport bags? Not the 4x4 coilovers.

mine is floating as well, im on uas over coil overs, i thought about the bracket as well, when you hit a bump or its a drastic change in the ground level, the bag itself will shift and move...

the thought of it...just does sit well with me

[QUOTE=MaxBoost925;195493]Werd - I got the basic UAS setup working already. I think it's time to go lower with coilovers :)



I believe you. But I'd much rather use those metal brackets. They keep the bag centered as possible.




That's freakin' gangster. Thanks for the input and picture.






Do you guys make a special bracket for tuner type coilovers with aero sport bags? Not the 4x4 coilovers.[/QUOTE]


Typically for the Tuner type coilover we weld a 1" peice of tube onto the lower bag strut plate that way it will sit onto of the coil nuts.

Also we have made a special bracket for the Tein CS rear for the IS/GS/SC's.

[IMG]http://www.universalairsuspension.com/_images/gallery/DSC_0274.jpg[/IMG]

[IMG]http://www.universalairsuspension.com/_images/gallery/IMG_3774_med.jpg[/IMG]

[QUOTE=Universal Air;195502][IMG]http://www.universalairsuspension.com/_images/gallery/DSC_0274.jpg[/IMG][/QUOTE]

That's freaking sweet. Can I order a set of front brackets from you guys? I need the top ones and the bottom ones for coilovers. (NON-Tein, ksport coilovers)

Those brackets are for which IS?? IS300 or ISx50??

[QUOTE=Universal Air;195502]Typically for the Tuner type coilover we weld a 1" peice of tube onto the lower bag strut plate that way it will sit onto of the coil nuts.

Also we have made a special bracket for the Tein CS rear for the IS/GS/SC's.

[IMG]http://www.universalairsuspension.com/_images/gallery/DSC_0274.jpg[/IMG]

[IMG]http://www.universalairsuspension.com/_images/gallery/IMG_3774_med.jpg[/IMG][/QUOTE]

Since these were the prototype,  is the final still using multiple pieces?

[QUOTE=iSuxeL;195707]Those brackets are for which IS?? IS300 or ISx50??[/QUOTE]

this is on lightwave's GS400

He had mention that its for the IS too, but which one?

IS300, as that was SOLO's car that used them.

[QUOTE=MaxBoost925;195629]That's freaking sweet. Can I order a set of front brackets from you guys? I need the top ones and the bottom ones for coilovers. (NON-Tein, ksport coilovers)[/QUOTE]

We have only done them for the Tein's.  If your using the Ksports with the double tapped coilover i would need you to measure the length of the bottom bracket to see if its even going to be low enough.  Otherwise we might have to shorten the bottom bracket up if its possible.

[QUOTE=iSuxeL;195707]Those brackets are for which IS?? IS300 or ISx50??[/QUOTE]

that bracket will work on the IS, GS (2nd and 3rd gen), and SC 2nd gen

[QUOTE=GSing430;195710]Since these were the prototype,  is the final still using multiple pieces?[/QUOTE]


Yes we are still using the multi-peice design.

[QUOTE=Caoboy;195883]IS300, as that was SOLO's car that used them.[/QUOTE]


Solo's is was different because he had a double tapped coilover.  We shortened the lower bracket so that way the bag could sit down lower ontop of the lower bracket.

I wonder how much travel is being stopped by still coils rather than the kybgr2 shock i am running , 

thus the reason why i dont roll so low to the ground ,  

btw is Zack the "Universal Air"  member on the boards ?

This is James Church btw , one of your first customers with the black gs400 on your site ;p

[QUOTE=Bippu PxrLex;196142]I wonder how much travel is being stopped by still coils rather than the kybgr2 shock i am running , 

thus the reason why i dont roll so low to the ground ,  

btw is Zack the "Universal Air"  member on the boards ?

This is James Church btw , one of your first customers with the black gs400 on your site ;p[/QUOTE]


Hey James, Its been a while, Yes, the is Zack.  Can you please explain what you mean by that.

The main advantages of running the coilovers is the adjustable dampening, ability go shorten the shock up and the ease of adjusting the spring pearches for the fronts.

Usually you can achive the same drop as the coilovers, just have to modify things.  What part are you trying to get lower, the front or the rear?  Or, which are you trying to get to not go as low?

[QUOTE=Universal Air;196141]Solo's is was different because he had a double tapped coilover.  We shortened the lower bracket so that way the bag could sit down lower ontop of the lower bracket.[/QUOTE]

That's interesting. What does Double Tapped mean exactly?

Here's photos of my coilovers:

[img]http://i19.photobucket.com/albums/b182/EFFIT805/DSC_0217.jpg[/img]

[img]http://i19.photobucket.com/albums/b182/EFFIT805/DSC_0002.jpg[/img]

[img]http://i19.photobucket.com/albums/b182/EFFIT805/DSC_0003.jpg[/img]

[img]http://i19.photobucket.com/albums/b182/EFFIT805/DSC_0004.jpg[/img]

Please examine and comment haha.

[img]http://c2.ac-images.myspacecdn.com/images02/42/l_599f2cf9b3f1497bb7d5f2e0c603e6e1.jpg[/img]

This is what I'm working with here.

I see the problem already... I see an inch more you can go with the stock struts.. that strut brng needs to kiss that top plate on the bag.. 
 
[quote=MaxBoost925;196410][IMG]http://c2.ac-images.myspacecdn.com/images02/42/l_599f2cf9b3f1497bb7d5f2e0c603e6e1.jpg[/IMG]
 
This is what I'm working with here.[/quote]

[QUOTE=MaxBoost925;196409]That's interesting. What does Double Tapped mean exactly?

Here's photos of my coilovers:

[img]http://i19.photobucket.com/albums/b182/EFFIT805/DSC_0217.jpg[/img]

[img]http://i19.photobucket.com/albums/b182/EFFIT805/DSC_0002.jpg[/img]

[img]http://i19.photobucket.com/albums/b182/EFFIT805/DSC_0003.jpg[/img]

[img]http://i19.photobucket.com/albums/b182/EFFIT805/DSC_0004.jpg[/img]

Please examine and comment haha.[/QUOTE]


A double tapped coilover means that you can adjust the spring pearch, along with the lower mount on the shock body.  Now the fitment issues with double tapped are only on the IS/GS/SC, not the xB (i am assuming thats what you have from sig & way the coilovers look) 

just make sure that the threaded body on the front is 2.14 or smaller and you will be good to go.

[QUOTE=eight08customs;196444]I see the problem already... I see an inch more you can go with the stock struts.. that strut brng needs to kiss that top plate on the bag..[/QUOTE]

That is correct you can move the top mount down by removing that spring plate and either trimming the upper plate to allow for the bag to ride on the center bearing and have the bolts clear the hat, or you can put washers ontop of the bag until the bolts clear but that will also limit your drop slightly (thickness of washers)

[QUOTE=Universal Air;196480]A double tapped coilover means that you can adjust the spring pearch, along with the lower mount on the shock body.  Now the fitment issues with double tapped are only on the IS/GS/SC, not the xB (i am assuming thats what you have from sig & way the coilovers look) 

just make sure that the threaded body on the front is 2.14 or smaller and you will be good to go.[/QUOTE]

That makes sense.

Cool! For this project i'm going to need the new coilover brackets and 2 new valves - my front right leaks :(

Do you think I need a 90 degree fitting for the bag as well?

[QUOTE=MaxBoost925;196496]That makes sense.

Cool! For this project i'm going to need the new coilover brackets and 2 new valves - my front right leaks :(

Do you think I need a 90 degree fitting for the bag as well?[/QUOTE]

If you using it on the coilover i would do a lower strut bag plate with a peice of 2 7/8" OD tubing x 1" welded to the bottom of it and a 1/4" pipe 90* and then a 1/4" npt 1/2" hose (or what ever size line your using ) to make the fititng clear the coil adjusters.

[QUOTE=Universal Air;196497]If you using it on the coilover i would do a lower strut bag plate with a peice of 2 7/8" OD tubing x 1" welded to the bottom of it and a 1/4" pipe 90* and then a 1/4" npt 1/2" hose (or what ever size line your using ) to make the fititng clear the coil adjusters.[/QUOTE]

Sounds good.

[url]https://www.universalairsuspension.com/product_info.php?cPath=30&products_id=44&osCsid=8e2e61994dbdfc8075ebe3df3ed19af2[/url]

For this Macphereson strut bag mount, does it include such a pipe piece that you described?


Thanks.

[QUOTE=MaxBoost925;196504]Sounds good.

[url]https://www.universalairsuspension.com/product_info.php?cPath=30&products_id=44&osCsid=8e2e61994dbdfc8075ebe3df3ed19af2[/url]

For this Macphereson strut bag mount, does it include such a pipe piece that you described?


Thanks.[/QUOTE]


Very similar, we would build them for what ever the application is for.

[QUOTE=Universal Air;196507]Very similar, we would build them for what ever the application is for.[/QUOTE]

Can I order from you Zack? Or should I go through the website?


Thanks,
Grant.

[QUOTE=MaxBoost925;196509]Can I order from you Zack? Or should I go through the website?


Thanks,
Grant.[/QUOTE]

We are not here to do any sales, we are not supporting vendors, we are here to help with any questions that you may have.

PGMotoringUSA is a supporting vendor and they carry our full product line.

[QUOTE=Universal Air;196510]We are not here to do any sales, we are not supporting vendors, we are here to help with any questions that you may have.

PGMotoringUSA is a supporting vendor and they carry our full product line.[/QUOTE]

wow. thats some good stuffs there. way to support your dealers and customers. thumbsup.

Charley

Also we have made a special bracket for the Tein CS rear for the IS/GS/SC's.

[IMG]http://www.universalairsuspension.com/_images/gallery/DSC_0274.jpg[/IMG]


Zack, from this pix, the lower bolt/stud don't seem to extend long enough to the end of the nut where the plastic "locks" the thread in place. (i hope that made sense)  is this something to be concern?

[QUOTE=GSing430;196606]Also we have made a special bracket for the Tein CS rear for the IS/GS/SC's.

[IMG]http://www.universalairsuspension.com/_images/gallery/DSC_0274.jpg[/IMG]


Zack, from this pix, the lower bolt/stud don't seem to extend long enough to the end of the nut where the plastic "locks" the thread in place. (i hope that made sense)  is this something to be concern?[/QUOTE]


In the pics, nothing is tightened down.  The bolts have to stay very close to the bracket otherwise it will hit the lower arm.

[IMG]http://www.universalairsuspension.com/_images/gallery/IMG_3774_med.jpg[/IMG]

[QUOTE=Universal Air;196510]We are not here to do any sales, we are not supporting vendors, we are here to help with any questions that you may have.

PGMotoringUSA is a supporting vendor and they carry our full product line.[/QUOTE]

Thanks for the help.

w00t w00t.

Parts are ordered through UAS website.

I just received the coilovers today!

Now I'm missing spanner wrenches :(

OMFG Install tomorrow.

Must wait for my new valves to come before I head to the shop!

Coilovers x air installed. Not finished though.

[img]http://c4.ac-images.myspacecdn.com/images02/35/l_8d1589c13bd44973bc6bae262074ae53.jpg[/img]

[img]http://c3.ac-images.myspacecdn.com/images02/38/l_c2a22ed05eee4743a095dac88fe3b3fe.jpg[/img]

[img]http://c2.ac-images.myspacecdn.com/images02/52/l_d0803b3593d74f4a85e3f8a4046be3f1.jpg[/img]

speachless.. 
 
since we are on the subject.. I just did a coil over UAS install.. saftey is always first on my list.. I know I could have just slapped it all on but I myself didnt like that idea.. 
 
Kicked it up a notch and made the lower perch bolt on to the huge threaded saddle instead of just free floating.. 
 
Why? less chance of rattling, the hose will always stay in one place.  and its bolt on and bags still can be serviced.. and most of all save the threads on the coil over becuase the perch isnt moving around. 
 
[IMG]http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v649/eight08customs/Air%20installs/yoshi%20Previa/CIMG1220.jpg[/IMG]
 
[IMG]http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v649/eight08customs/Air%20installs/yoshi%20Previa/CIMG1218.jpg[/IMG]

ballin grantman!!

Marshall's idea is always innovative.

Now I gotta copy it to prevent further line rupture! :)

both setups are nice.

Charley

[QUOTE=charley240sx;198907]both setups are nice.

Charley[/QUOTE]

Haha. I'd have to give it up to Marshall though, he knows exactly what he's doing.

[img]http://i131.photobucket.com/albums/p289/xnotoriousfobx/8eedfd7bfe23.jpg[/img]

;)

[QUOTE=Kohinoor;199013][img]http://i131.photobucket.com/albums/p289/xnotoriousfobx/8eedfd7bfe23.jpg[/img]

;)[/QUOTE]

Ok now that is the gangsterist of everyone.

HKS Hypermax + UAS.

Looking good Grant! Is that as low as the rear goes?

[quote=eight08customs;198896]speachless.. 
 
since we are on the subject.. I just did a coil over UAS install.. saftey is always first on my list.. I know I could have just slapped it all on but I myself didnt like that idea.. 
 
Kicked it up a notch and made the lower perch bolt on to the huge threaded saddle instead of just free floating.. 
 
Why? less chance of rattling, the hose will always stay in one place. and its bolt on and bags still can be serviced.. and most of all save the threads on the coil over becuase the perch isnt moving around. 
 
[IMG]http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v649/eight08customs/Air%20installs/yoshi%20Previa/CIMG1220.jpg[/IMG]
 
[IMG]http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v649/eight08customs/Air%20installs/yoshi%20Previa/CIMG1218.jpg[/IMG][/quote]
 
 
this guy know wassup..

[QUOTE=eight08customs;198896]speachless.. 
 
since we are on the subject.. I just did a coil over UAS install.. saftey is always first on my list.. I know I could have just slapped it all on but I myself didnt like that idea.. 
 
Kicked it up a notch and made the lower perch bolt on to the huge threaded saddle instead of just free floating.. 
 
Why? less chance of rattling, the hose will always stay in one place.  and its bolt on and bags still can be serviced.. and most of all save the threads on the coil over becuase the perch isnt moving around. 
 
[IMG]http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v649/eight08customs/Air%20installs/yoshi%20Previa/CIMG1220.jpg[/IMG]
 
[IMG]http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v649/eight08customs/Air%20installs/yoshi%20Previa/CIMG1218.jpg[/IMG][/QUOTE]


Hmm...that coilover looks familar! Yoshi's?

[quote=hondaboi;199270]Hmm...that coilover looks familar! Yoshi's?[/quote]
 
right on the money.. you win a free trip to Hawaii!!!!

[QUOTE=eight08customs;199287]right on the money.. you win a free trip to Hawaii!!!![/QUOTE]

yay! where do I pickup my ticket? I have never been to hawaii! I heard its nice, maybe I should work there!!!

I like to live in a warm dry place!! Its wet here in Vancouver!


on the side note, is doing that mod necessary? I thought that the weight of the car will safely secure the bag from rotating?

how much lower does it go? wanting to do this to my gen1 b. never done air b4 also.. big step up..

[QUOTE=Kohinoor;199013][img]http://i131.photobucket.com/albums/p289/xnotoriousfobx/8eedfd7bfe23.jpg[/img]

;)[/QUOTE]

:dance:

[QUOTE=craigsb;199381]how much lower does it go? wanting to do this to my gen1 b. never done air b4 also.. big step up..[/QUOTE]

Like 4 additional inches of loweredness.

You can go even lower but your max-up and ride height will be lower.

I have a 2 finger gap at ride height.

WTF 2 finger gap!?!?!
 
Lower it until your max UP is like 3 finger gap, ride height you should be flush with tires, and full dump should be on the ground.

^^^ amem to that!! nice lookin set up you got there!

I don't think I have 4 inchs till i'm on da ground.. might have to do this.. started get my air set together.. slow process..

I wouldn't mind doing this with my gen1 xB either. Right now, I'm going to have to notch the frame for the swaybar and possibly the axle and rework the power steering system so the belt doesn't rub the axle until I get get any lower. :/

Totally ill setups guys!

you guys are putting WAYYYYYYYYYYY too much work into this shit

put the bag on the coilover, i never had:

rattles
thumps
bags turn and change hose position
scrapes
gouges
problems with coilover threads

you guys are making more work for yourself for no reason.  and i ran that shit to the extreme, damn near fully deflated around 40psi the whole time. if it isnt going to move at that psi, its not going to.

[QUOTE=Yokotas13;199699]you guys are putting WAYYYYYYYYYYY too much work into this shit

put the bag on the coilover, i never had:

rattles
thumps
bags turn and change hose position
scrapes
gouges
problems with coilover threads

you guys are making more work for yourself for no reason.  and i ran that shit to the extreme, damn near fully deflated around 40psi the whole time. if it isnt going to move at that psi, its not going to.[/QUOTE]

Grant, I don't see how that is possible.

I did the same, but with the brackets instead, that hardware shifted around like I described earlier.

I had to add a bunch of mods to it to keep it in one with the coilover.


It works fine now *knock on wood*

-Grant.

Never had a problem. ever, well i did when i put a wheel with too high of an offset on, but was my fault.


But nah, i never had a problem. But i tweeked my setup for like a week with preload and PSI to be perfect. so maybe its because i did that?

i dunno

[quote=Yokotas13;199920]Never had a problem. ever, well i did when i put a wheel with too high of an offset on, but was my fault.


But nah, i never had a problem. But i tweeked my setup for like a week with preload and PSI to be perfect. so maybe its because i did that?

i dunno[/quote]

Pretty much exactly what I did. It takes ridiculously long to fine tune it, but I got it at the perfect height and at the perfect comfortable driving Psi and the bags dont move around at all. Well, the rears will move a little if I air up the bag really fast from full deflate to full up but i usually NEVER do that. The key is preloading.


[IMG]http://a311.ac-images.myspacecdn.com/images01/31/l_2c922c0917dd6ecd6c0abba41dcdd55e.jpg[/IMG]

Okay back from the dead....how are you guys preloading airbags to coincide with your coils?

slightly. like 10mm is what i do
inflate all the way, tighten perches till the top touches the tophat
then tighten 10mm more

[QUOTE=Yokotas13;271921]slightly. like 10mm is what i do
inflate all the way, tighten perches till the top touches the tophat
then tighten 10mm more[/QUOTE]

Sweet thanks grant:biggthumpup: