Hi guys, anyone can help me out here??

I have been reading on this forum and researching a lot about cup  kits as that is what i wanted to get. But it seems like i can't post  elsewhere but here, so i am hoping someone can help me out with my  suspension set up.
 
Like i said, i plan to get a cup kit set up for my ride, but my search  for the cup kits have only came up to a few companies who actually have  them. Eventually i ended up only with Top Secret's Roberutas cup kits. 

Can anyone else help me out and maybe give me other options for cup kits?

I have found:
1. Top Secret
2. Umbrella Cup kits
3. Air Force

Can anyone chime in on the Umbrella cup kits? How do they handle and  what do you think of their company? Thanks guys. I really appreciate  your help.

[QUOTE=TwistedMission;369833]I have been reading on this forum and researching a lot about cup  kits as that is what i wanted to get. But it seems like i can't post  elsewhere but here, so i am hoping someone can help me out with my  suspension set up.
 
Like i said, i plan to get a cup kit set up for my ride, but my search  for the cup kits have only came up to a few companies who actually have  them. Eventually i ended up only with Top Secret's Roberutas cup kits. 

Can anyone else help me out and maybe give me other options for cup kits?

I have found:
1. Top Secret
2. Umbrella Cup kits
3. Air Force

Can anyone chime in on the Umbrella cup kits? How do they handle and  what do you think of their company? Thanks guys. I really appreciate  your help.[/QUOTE]


I've used Umbrella before. I would stay away from them. They took 6 months to get them and to be honest didn't really feel like the quality was on par with the price. 

I would suggest Air Force. 

Also, why not just run bags over coilovers? Kinda the best of both worlds. Keep in mind it is extremely uncomfortable to drive with cups inflated. I would say you couldn't do it for very long. So if you want to raise the car to drive it, cups aren't for you.

Thanks for the advice man, well, my reason i am going with cups is because i drive a G37, and i don't want to lose my ride quality and handling, and i am afraid that i will lose in performance if i ride on bags. At the same time i want to have that slight VIP look, and be able to control my ride height from the cabin. And i know my car isn't a VIP car, but i am inspired to build it like the G35 that i saw from the Platinum VIP site. 
How bad will the ride be if i drive it inflated? And yes, i am aware that cup kits aren't supposed to be driven inflated, just to go over obstacles. But another advantage is that it doesn't use up a lot of trunk space and its more reliable, or so i read, because bags have a tendency to leak and stuff  like that. Please correct me if i am wrong, for i am here to learn. 
Personally i have never heard of Air Force until i did my research about cup kits, that is why i wanted to know from someone who had it on their car first hand. Thanks for the reply man.

platinum VIP also makes an in house cup kit

[QUOTE=cheez80;369906]platinum VIP also makes an in house cup kit[/QUOTE]

never mind, saw your other post

[QUOTE=TwistedMission;369833]Can anyone chime in on the Umbrella cup kits? How do they handle and what do you think of their company? Thanks guys. I really appreciate your help.[/QUOTE]
 
before i start, i want to put it out in the open that i am dealer for umbrella. i chose to deal with them for various reasons. as far as a company they are great. i speak with ravi at length regularly and he is always helpful in more ways than just selling me his product. he seems like a true entusiast and has been very respectful of me being a small business still in the early stages.
 
as far as the ride quality, that is solely dependant on the coilovers you use. [I]when set up and used properly[/I] they do not affect your ride quality at all. they are intended to be driven on deflated, in which case they act the same as a tophat. the purpose of cups is not to give you multiple ride heights, it is to navigate entry/exit ways and avouid obstacles.
 
i don't mean to pick this next post apart but i disagree/have had different experience with every part.
 
[QUOTE=jzz30tt;369885]They took 6 months to get them...[/QUOTE]
 
6 months is unacceptable. however, i've never experienced a wait anything like this. keep in mind that umbrella custom makes each kit for each application, they are not off-the-shelf parts.
 
[QUOTE=jzz30tt;369885]... and to be honest didn't really feel like the quality was on par with the price.[/QUOTE]
 
umbrella has a 0% failure rate. how much better can it get?
 
as far as price, they are in line with other american/japanese made options. 
 
[QUOTE=jzz30tt;369885]I would suggest Air Force.[/QUOTE]
 
i would suggest otherwise. the only person i know to run them had issues with blowing seals. they are a lower quality korean (iirc) made product targeted at the budget market.
 
[QUOTE=jzz30tt;369885]Also, why not just run bags over coilovers? Kinda the best of both worlds. Keep in mind it is extremely uncomfortable to drive with cups inflated. I would say you couldn't do it for very long. So if you want to raise the car to drive it, cups aren't for you.[/QUOTE]
 
i'm curious as to what you consider "both worlds". imo, the best of both worlds is to have the handling, precision, travel, and ride quality (probably one of the few for the latter) of coilovers and the ability to raise for clearance. drive low, park lower < drive lower.
 
as for being uncomfortable to ride on inflated, that's because that is not how they are intended to be used. cups raise the vehicle by prloading the spring. this essentially raises the spring rate (even more so with springs that go out of spec under compression). umbrella cups are offered with swift springs because they are the most linear springs on the market.
 
not tryin to argue here, just giving my perspective.

[QUOTE=OG;369920]before i start, i want to put it out in the open that i am dealer for umbrella. i chose to deal with them for various reasons. as far as a company they are great. i speak with ravi at length regularly and he is always helpful in more ways than just selling me his product. he seems like a true entusiast and has been very respectful of me being a small business still in the early stages.
 
as far as the ride quality, that is solely dependant on the coilovers you use. [I]when set up and used properly[/I] they do not affect your ride quality at all. they are intended to be driven on deflated, in which case they act the same as a tophat. the purpose of cups is not to give you multiple ride heights, it is to navigate entry/exit ways and avouid obstacles.
 
i don't mean to pick this next post apart but i disagree/have had different experience with every part.
 

 
6 months is unacceptable. however, i've never experienced a wait anything like this. keep in mind that umbrella custom makes each kit for each application, they are not off-the-shelf parts.
 

 
umbrella has a 0% failure rate. how much better can it get?
 
as far as price, they are in line with other american/japanese made options. 
 

 
i would suggest otherwise. the only person i know to run them had issues with blowing seals. they are a lower quality korean (iirc) made product targeted at the budget market.
 

 
i'm curious as to what you consider "both worlds". imo, the best of both worlds is to have the handling, precision, travel, and ride quality (probably one of the few for the latter) of coilovers and the ability to raise for clearance. drive low, park lower < drive lower.
 
as for being uncomfortable to ride on inflated, that's because that is not how they are intended to be used. cups raise the vehicle by prloading the spring. this essentially raises the spring rate (even more so with springs that go out of spec under compression). umbrella cups are offered with swift springs because they are the most linear springs on the market.
 
not tryin to argue here, just giving my perspective.[/QUOTE]


I've never had experience with Air Force personally, so maybe that wasn't a great suggestion. I've just heard from friends that they loved the kits. 

As far as Umbrella is concerned they may not be mass produced, but when I got them they looked like they were made in someones backyard garage. They didn't exactly scream quality. Can't say that mine failed, but there isn't a whole lot to fail imo. As for the price, they are way to expensive to arrive looking like they did. They are on par with the the price of Top Secret, you are correct. Could you take a picture of both ("Umbrella" and Top Secret) side by side, and ask people which one they would rather pay that price for? 

I'm really not trying to argue either, but I just was pretty annoyed at the whole situation. 

As far as driving them inflated, I'm aware they are not intended to be driven inflated. I was just letting the OP know that isn't suggested because it will ride horrible... since he seemed like maybe it would be a possibility. 

The reason I suggested Coilovers with Bags, is because you can set a pretty low comfortable drive height (with plenty of air for a decent ride) and park lower, or raise it to get over obstacles.

suggest airforce LMAO ...i had those on my GS. Never again will i buy anything affliated with that company. It did what it was supposed to do but i did have alot of issues with seals blowing every now and then. the coilovers werent even that great either. But if the suspension was setup correctly it will will do what its supposed to do but for longevity i wouldnt go with it.

Thanks for the feedbacks people, and yes, lets not argue, everyone has their own experiences and each to their own i guess. I am here to just get some opinions and suggestions on what i should get or any alternatives. 
@OG, where is Umbrella made, and do you have a picture the cup kits? and are they Universal? 
@jzz30tt, thanks for your advice, and yea i did some research on Air Force and seems like there wasn't any feedback on them... I guess its better to cross that out. 
And i'm with you on pricing too, if Umbrella and Top Secret costs the same, then i think i wouldn't hesitate to get the Top Secret, i was thinking maybe there's an alternative either on better pricing or better cup kits out there, Like the phantom cup kits, from what i read, they are able to be driven inflated, and the price ain't that bad too. The bad thing is just that  the owner wouldn't sell it to me. 
So... anyone else who can chime in? Or is the Top Secret Roberuta cup kit my only choice?

[QUOTE=jzz30tt;369953]They are on par with the the price of Top Secret, you are correct. Could you take a picture of both ("Umbrella" and Top Secret) side by side, and ask people which one they would rather pay that price for?[/QUOTE]
 
i do not have any cups on hand, however i am expecting a set that we are prototyping for a 4 wheel gs kit soon. high quality pictures and a vsc product feature are planned.
 
top secret, bold world, skipper, etc. are all rebadged roberuta. i can't provide any exclusive pics of them, but you can see them on the net. they [I]are[/I] beautiful (particularly the bold world arogusta version). i should also add that all roberuta based options are significantly [I]more[/I] expensive. platinum's kit is priced similarly.
 
[QUOTE=jzz30tt;369953]I'm really not trying to argue either, but I just was pretty annoyed at the whole situation.[/QUOTE]
 
:biggthumpup:
 
we should be able to share different perspectives without arguing. grown up style.
 
[QUOTE=TwistedMission;369965]OG, where is Umbrella made, and do you have a picture the cup kits? and are they Universal?[/QUOTE]
 
i will be taking some fresh pics of the umbrella set up soon (as described above).
 
umbrella is made in washington (iirc). this is one of the reasons i chose to go with umbrella. since my main market is stateside i wanted something that was u.s. made so that if there were any issues they could be handled easily and promptly. 
 
they are not universal in the aspect that one kit will fit every car/coilover. a fully custom kit can be custom built for just about every configuration though.
 
[QUOTE=TwistedMission;369965]And i'm with you on pricing too, if Umbrella and Top Secret costs the same, then i think i wouldn't hesitate to get the Top Secret...[/QUOTE]
 
they are in the same ballpark, not really the same. msrp on a 4 wheel kit for umbrella is ~$3100, roberuta based systems were $4k+. not sure how the yen to your currency is, but this number is based on old exchange rates. i would expect it to be closer to $5k now.
 
[QUOTE=TwistedMission;369965]Like the phantom cup kits, from what i read, they are able to be driven inflated...[/QUOTE]
 
this is just marketing as far as i'm concerned. platinum understands that, rather than thinking outside of the box and truly embracing the pros of a cup set up, a lot of people will just be looking for a bag alternative. using cups like you use bags kills the advantages that cups have over bags.

Thanks OG, So when will you have pics of this kit, roughly?And i just realized that Umbrella is a U.S based company, which is a plus. Since its a custom kit, and has to be customized to the spec of different cars, does that mean i still have to rock Umbrella's coilovers? Or can i custom them to the specific coilovers i want to get for my car?
Yes the Top Secret kits will be ard $5k for me. As for the phantom kits, I called up Platinum VIP and talked to the owner myself, he assured me they can be driven inflated, because he had one installed on his car, and has been driving it inflated for 2 years, and so far its been running good. I don't know if that is a marketing scheme but that did draw me to get that instead of the Top Secret. I read here somewhere that they guarantee their cup kits can br driven inflated too.

i can guarantee that if you throw a kitten off a cliff it will fall, but that doesn't mean you should steal your neighbors pet and head for the mountains.
 
nothing against platinum, i believe they make a quality product, but imo they are capitalizing off the ignorance of consumers rather than educating them. they are taking what should be a moot point and making is a basis for comparison. that's why i call it marketing.
 
i should have pictures sometime next week as well as a detailed write up; not only for the umbrella product, but the theory of cups in general. it may be worth waiting for to get a better understanding.
 
*edit - i did not address the questions about what coilovers can be used. they can be made for whatever coilover you want. the usual procedure is to send yours in and they come back fitted. this ensures proper fitment. it may also be possible to provide some key measurements, but i'm not 100%. umbrella really likes to push the complete package, and i understand why. when everything is provided by umbrella their reputation lies solely on their shoulders. when things are mixed and matched there's a possibility of uncontrollable variables reflecting poorly on the product.

[QUOTE=TwistedMission;370077]Thanks OG, So when will you have pics of this kit, roughly?And i just realized that Umbrella is a U.S based company, which is a plus. Since its a custom kit, and has to be customized to the spec of different cars, does that mean i still have to rock Umbrella's coilovers? Or can i custom them to the specific coilovers i want to get for my car?
Yes the Top Secret kits will be ard $5k for me. As for the phantom kits, I called up Platinum VIP and talked to the owner myself, he assured me they can be driven inflated, because he had one installed on his car, and has been driving it inflated for 2 years, and so far its been running good. I don't know if that is a marketing scheme but that did draw me to get that instead of the Top Secret. I read here somewhere that they guarantee their cup kits can br driven inflated too.[/QUOTE]


You can drive with any of the kits inflated. I wasn't saying it can't be done, as it certainly can. It is extremely harsh to do so. Like OG said it essentially sends the spring rates through the roof thus making the ride quality pretty poor. I drove with them inflated several times, just to see what it was like and it wasn't fun.. haha

Thanks for the replies guys. I guess i'll wait up till next week, to see about your review and pictures on the Cup kits man. Thanks a lot. 
And yea, i understand that mix and match may result in people blaming on the product if something is to go bad, but if Umbrella's design in universal, and let's say i got my coilovers from a reputable brand,  i think it should work out good right? i mean, with the cup deflated, its should just be the coilovers that is working.

[QUOTE=TwistedMission;370219]Thanks for the replies guys. I guess i'll wait up till next week, to see about your review and pictures on the Cup kits man. Thanks a lot. 
And yea, i understand that mix and match may result in people blaming on the product if something is to go bad, but if Umbrella's design in universal, and let's say i got my coilovers from a reputable brand,  i think it should work out good right? i mean, with the cup deflated, its should just be the coilovers that is working.[/QUOTE]

You are correct. You do not have to use Umbrellas coilovers for their cups to work, I used my own.

how stiff are we talking while inflated...what spring rate can we compare it to, roughly?

jzz30tt, You have the Umbrella cup kit on your ride now?? How was the handling and how does the ride feel? What coilovers did you use? 
And yes, i am curious how bad does it feel when driving with the cups inflated, because when i was told that the owner of the phantom cup kits drove his car with the cup kit inflated for the past 2 years, he only mention he drove it inflated with no problems, but didn't really say anything about the ride feel.

[QUOTE=TwistedMission;370219]And yea, i understand that mix and match may result in people blaming on the product if something is to go bad, but if Umbrella's design in universal, and let's say i got my coilovers from a reputable brand, i think it should work out good right? i mean, with the cup deflated, its should just be the coilovers that is working.[/QUOTE]
 
you are correct on all counts. providing your own coilovers is not a problem.
 
[QUOTE=BAHC;370305]how stiff are we talking while inflated...what spring rate can we compare it to, roughly?[/QUOTE]
 
i don't have a solid answer because i don't know how to calculate the conversion from preload to effective spring rate, but i can give you some theory so you can get a better idea.
 
say you have a 12k (674lb) spring. that means it takes 674 pounds to compress the spring one inch. your preload is set at 0 (no droop) with the cup installed. when the cup is inflated one inch it will compress the spring equally, which means that the energy stored due to compression must be overcome. this is outside my factual knowledge but i imagone the effective spring rate could easily be doubled. it would not be a linear change.
 
[QUOTE=TwistedMission;370358]jzz30tt, You have the Umbrella cup kit on your ride now?? How was the handling and how does the ride feel? What coilovers did you use? 
And yes, i am curious how bad does it feel when driving with the cups inflated, because when i was told that the owner of the phantom cup kits drove his car with the cup kit inflated for the past 2 years, he only mention he drove it inflated with no problems, but didn't really say anything about the ride feel.[/QUOTE]
 
again, the ride quality when installed/used correctly depends solely on the coilover.
 
it is possible to avoid the effective spring rate change by setting the preload with the cup inflated (vs. delfated) but you will lose suspension travel when deflated. i imagine this is how someone who drove daily while inflated would set it up.

Thanks for clearing this up OG, i believe you have more knowledge about the cup kits than any of us right now, and your inputs about it are appreciated. Can't wait for your review on cup kits. Thanks a lot.

^^^^^ to mike the cups are the future and the future is now lol!!! hes does know his shit!

 i got to admit that i do miss my airforce cup kit :(. the design of the system was great but the quality just wasnt up to par but it did the job! i would soo give up the bags for cups in a heart beat!

Hey xxjustimajinxx, you had Airforce before? Can you chime in on your personal experiences with cups compared to bags? What will be the advantages and disadvantages of the cups?
Thanks man.

Hey OG, when can we expect your review on the Umbrella's? Thanks man.

when they get here and i have time to write it up/take pics. super busy all of a sudden.

Thanks OG, i'll be waiting then. Thanks.