Best Suspension For Your VIP Car (Discussion)

Everyone has their preference when it comes to suspension but too often I see cats cosign a particular brand or set up as the "best" without providing any supporting information. Rather than continuing to bust up those threads, let's have one for intelligent discussion.
 
 

Possible topics of discussion:
[LIST]
[*]Types of suspension
[*]Brand of suspension
[*]Pros of chosen type/brand
[*]Cons of chosen type/brand (Hint: There are cons to [I]every[/I] type. I'd take posts that don't include this information with a grain of salt.)
[*]Cost
[/LIST]Obviously this will be a topic of debate. Let's keep in mind that this is not an e-penis contest, this is to help other members of the community gain some insight as well as ourselves. Keep it civil and we can have a great reference thread.

my [I]suspension[/I] preferance is coilovers. i'm not one of those guys who thinks air is cheating, but i do take a little pride in doing it static.
 
the fact of the matter is that you need stiff suspension to be real low (and real low is how it must be). in order to set air bags up to be stiff at a low ride height you have to sacrifice lift (which defeats the purpose from my perspective). juice can be tuned to be stiff via accumulators or lack thereof.
 
there is a lot to be said for simplicity. coilovers require no electric circuit, no air supply, and no hydraulic system. air bags can be simplified via manual valves, but air runner is the only company pushing this method and i think it's a bad deal at the price point.
 
another aspect is function. when you dial in a static setup that's it. you're camber, toe, caster, bumpsteer, spring rate, suspension travel, etc. are not going to go outside of their dynamic curves save failure. with a suspension designed to be constantly adjustable you are only on your specs at 1 specific value. it's a precision thing in my eyes; set your suspension how you want and stay there.
 
that being said, and as everyone knows, i say cups are the future and the future is now. i don't consider cups an actual suspension, they are a coilover accesory. they do not change how your suspension performs when used properly (lift). a lot of people seem to want to make them a bag replacment, but when using them as bags are used (drop) you are negating the benefits. they allow you to set up your ride height at lows previously impracticle (relative) and still have some obstacle avoidance on tap. if you're setting them up to drive inflated you are setting up high, which makes them only useful for hard parking. not interested personally.
 
another pro is in the case of failure. if air fails you may be stuck unable to llift a corner or the entire car. if juice fails i'm not exactly sure what happens but since it ios a pressurized system i'm positive it's not good. if cups fail you are only deprived of lift.
 
(here go the cons) cups are relatively expensive when compared to some other options, but then again not so much when compared to others. the availability of decent coilovers at budget friendly prices helps. also, you won't get a huge height range, and you won't be able to lay it out parked (when used properly).
 
as far as i'm concerned, if i can daily with 1" of ground clearance with no assist and no issues, i can cut that in half with obstacle avoidance in place. if i can get where i need to go with 25mm between the frame and the concrete then i can defnitely get through any situation with 75mm. for [I]me[/I] it's a no brainer, although i remain interesated in all types of suspension.

I cant decide what I like better right now. Stance or Powered by Max

Both have awesome dampening, will dump the car, and ride a lot better than most coilovers i have ridden or driven on. Prices are very fair for both and from what i see both can take a beating and wont blow out or bend in strange places.

Tein is probably the absolute worst coilover I have driven on. The dampening halfass works, they tend to not take the blows and bumps from the road which means it causes damage to the body and frame of the car and the prices are insane. Ill definitely never buy another set of Tein ANYTHING ever again. Tein coilovers also tend to blowout faster and do strange things more than most coilovers I have seen. Never have i seen the body of a coilover warp under normal driving conditions but i have heard of this happening to the Tein coils more than one time. Ill try to post pics if I can find them. If you buy a set of these coils I would recommended having a lazyboy chair put into the driver seat of your car along with having your frame stitch welded.

wooooooow what an open ended question with so many possible answers.

now obviously not all car models have all the same options as to who makes suspension parts for their cars. but a general rule i kinda see it like this, when $$ is not a limiting factor

1. air and coils
2. cups and coils
3. air
4.coilovers
5. lowering springs

as for each company that really is subjective. i am currently on stance gr+ and love them for the y33. in the 240 they were too soft, and pbm's for me are way to stiff for daily driving. i have also used and can say postive things for jic, megan racing, apexi coilovers as well. 
i do agree with vj that tein coilovers are horrible. the tension rods are better built, but that is all i trust from that company.

Bags + coils does the trick for me. You have the ability to drive low and park lower and get a lot more clearance than any cup kit on the market can give you.  

The only issue that's making me want to go to coils + cups is the thought that riding with less pressure in the bags is going to lead to a bouncy ride but I probably won't know for sure until the smaller wheels arrive.  

Coils definitely are not for me, I wouldn't even be able to get into my job without some sort of height adjustable suspension.  

As far as brands go, I ridden in air runner and can’t tell a significant difference as far as comfort goes VS. coils + bag set ups. Cost wise, I got my entire kit with digital management and better parts than air runner kits come with and paid several hundred less.

I also use Tein CS and have not had any issues, they are softer than others so might not be good for really dumpt cars over a stiffer suspension but this along with the Tein flex suspension I have owned before have been pretty good to me.  I do agree they are a bit on the expensive side vs. something like BC and stance brand coilovers,  which I have been getting good reviews from.

I use UAS bags on bilstein shocks. ride is great. smooth and a bit sporty as well.
if i could use bags+coils, i would but the end cost isnt good.
i like the cost of the UAS because it is doable for most people.
only bad thing i can see, is that it is a universal kit. so custom things have to be done. plus on 2GS, the bag rubs on the spindle.

my setup of choice:
some sort of bag/strut combo (ie. airrunner)
with digital gauges/control

i like to use 50 lb bags of rice in the trunk -- old school lowrider style :P

i'm using a data systems r-spec lowering module in the 600h right now, and it's cool but it sucks for actually driving the car -- i like to ride low and letting air out of the bags makes the ride suffer a lot. i'm scared of driving the car too low and blowing a shock (OG, should've listened to you ;)

the benefits are cost, comparatively, to a new aftermarket bag setup for the car (the controller runs about $1150 new, air runner is at least 2-3x that, i'd imagine), on the fly adjustability, stock load leveling, stock buttons all work (the car has a button for on-the-fly raising), and it installs (and looks) like an old school greddy turbo timer -- the harness is pretty awesome. makes the installation plug-and-play

i think my ideal setup for riding low is still coilovers with a cup kit, or with something like the KW HLS-like setup that OCKlasse is developing, where i can ride 99% of the time on coilovers and raise the car only for obstacles.

Bags + Coils or Cups + Coils

My previous car had coilovers (NEX GT), Had them over a year before I sold the car. Never had a problem, besides the fact I wanted to be lower.

On the LS400 I went BCR coils+UAS, I can drive really low, park lower and go 4x4 if I need. Many ways to adjust (still playing); I went this way only because the roads are bad and I need to go UP to get where I need, otherwise I would stick with coils.
Install aint plug-and-play, but I like challenges.

OCKlasse has showed me that hydraulics have come a long way.   You can slam it to the floor..you can drive very low AND you can raise the car VERY high to clear almost anything.  Dampening is somewhat adjustable (accumilator?).  You don't run out of air on these although you could run out of power.   The cons would probably be learning how to hard line...and then probably dealing with fluids and high voltage/amps.

I'm still new to the idea so I'm sure there are more pros and cons.

U wouldn't run out of power if u run a street charger-charges ur batteries while u drive....

im currently in the market for a new suspension and i have a lot of questions. 
 
ive driven my car slammed on coils for a long time now, and its the suspension of choice for me. however, with my new bodywork and fiberglass front bumper, i would like to have some bit of adjustability. I would still drive 90% of the time at full dump and only air up to get over obstacles or if i see a huge dip coming up etc. this initially makes me want to go cup + coils. However, i'm worried that if im coming up to a point where i know the roads are shitty for a whole ten mile stretch..am i able to drive on the cups while aired up for longer periods of time?
 
I'm looking for a stiff suspension; adjustable, but with coilover performance and characteristics. If the suspension is soft or bouncy, i dont want it. a lot of people say UAS and airrunner ride comfortable..does this translate to not stiff? people also say drive low, park lower..how low are we talking? with a soft suspension, my car would not last at my ride height.
 
im currently considering cups or hydros. ive already expressed my concern with cups. my concern with hydros is the hardlines and reliability/maintanence. 
 
id consider uas+coils only if i can get guarenteed that itll perform similar to a 18k spring rate coilover. i wouldnt need it to air out lower then drive height, as id normally drive at 0 or very low (1" raise) psi.
 
to reiterate, ride comfort is of no concern to me.  what matters is an adjustable suspension that will provide me coilover performance when driven at low psi.

BAHC, some guys with the platinum vip setup drive aired up all the time, effectively using the cup as a bag replacement. i think you'll be fine driving aired up for slightly longer stretches, but i'll defer to someone who actually has experience.

i'm sure you could, but the for the price you pay, why would you use it as a bag. i can't imagine it being more forgiving than a bag.

[QUOTE=brainneeded;374503]i'm sure you could, but the for the price you pay, why would you use it as a bag. i can't imagine it being more forgiving than a bag.[/QUOTE]

well, reclaiming a lot of trunk space is a benefit, as is simplicity of plumbing, i'd imagine. then again, like i said previously, i don't have any personal experience with cups

[QUOTE=cheez80;374504]well, reclaiming a lot of trunk space is a benefit, as is simplicity of plumbing, i'd imagine. then again, like i said previously, i don't have any personal experience with cups[/QUOTE]

I would also like to find out the replacement cost of a failed unit if any. I think most of us are apprehensive due to our inexperience with the cup kit type setup.

The general assumption is that its only good for airing up to avoid obstacles and not to be ridden on as a regular uas bag type setup would.

Something is coming guys...testing within two weeks!!

The answer to all of your problems will soon be here

i cant say to much but after talking to some ppl coil/bag seems to be the better out of them all. im currently on bags/struts horrid, so coils my next thing. but dont think its been pointed, if you go coil/bag youll want a 3-way adjustable coil(compression,rebound,damping) fine tune it to the height you drive and road conditions.

[QUOTE=BLKVIP;374533]i cant say to much but after talking to some ppl coil/bag seems to be the better out of them all. im currently on bags/struts horrid, so coils my next thing. but dont think its been pointed, if you go coil/bag youll want a 3-way adjustable coil(compression,rebound,damping) fine tune it to the height you drive and road conditions.[/QUOTE]
 
care to explain how you a set a damper to match a variable spring rate?

[QUOTE=OG;374534]care to explain how you a set a damper to match a variable spring rate?[/QUOTE]

care to explain how we're going to afford a 3-way adjustable shock? haha. all joking aside, i'd imagine most of us don't even have a fraction of the knowledge needed to set something that up. we're talking moton level shit, yeah?

OG is doing my suspension install and helped me out a lot. so he can answer for me here too lol.

wait, so what are these coil+bag systems besides the tanabe air cobra?  ive only seen strut+bag.  the reason i was preferring a cup over a bag is because the coil is still there, giving me the performance i need.

[QUOTE=BAHC;374573]wait, so what are these coil+bag systems besides the tanabe air cobra?  ive only seen strut+bag.  the reason i was preferring a cup over a bag is because the coil is still there, giving me the performance i need.[/QUOTE]

its strut + spring + cup. to my understanding its similar to bags in terms of plumbing and hardware necessary. you can ride with them up (from my understanding), its just not recommended.

I haven't lost power once (streetcharger), nor had 1 day where I couldn't daily my car everywhere regardless of the obstacles OR weather conditions (take THAT air suspension!)  All the while driving comfortably AND lower than most guys on coilovers.  I'm pretty happy...

Personally, in my Q45, I'm planning a 2/6 Hydroholics setup running off 36volts.  I'm a die-hard minitrucker, so adjustable and low is what I'm most familiar with. 
Still going to run the S14 conversion, for adjustability.

[QUOTE=cheez80;374559]care to explain how we're going to afford a 3-way adjustable shock? haha. all joking aside, i'd imagine most of us don't even have a fraction of the knowledge needed to set something that up. we're talking moton level shit, yeah?[/QUOTE]
 
good point as well. i think everyone should understand how suspension works but we also have to realize that what we do changes the rules. performance suspension is about having adequate travel while we need to limit travel.
 
[QUOTE=BAHC;374573]wait, so what are these coil+bag systems besides the tanabe air cobra? ive only seen strut+bag. the reason i was preferring a cup over a bag is because the coil is still there, giving me the performance i need.[/QUOTE]
 
i think they are referring to bags over coilovers (uas). bold world also offers a bag + spring setup fyi.

obv you cant with a variable psi , I know my roads are slightly bumpy so id go from their and try a few diff settings that works for were I drive, but this is every day driving not racing doesnt have to be perfect jst saying

spring rate has more impact on ride quality than damping. spring rate determines how the suspension compresses and rebounds, dampers control how fast it happens. i'm sure that's the over simplified version  but that's what i go by.

[QUOTE=elpresidente;374590]I haven't lost power once (streetcharger), nor had 1 day where I couldn't daily my car everywhere regardless of the obstacles OR weather conditions (take THAT air suspension!) All the while driving comfortably AND lower than most guys on coilovers. I'm pretty happy...[/QUOTE]
 
 
so just to beat a dead horse, youre saying that, even when riding dumped, hydros are stiff and limit suspension travel to the point where you feel like a japanese man in the middle of tokyo?

[QUOTE=elpresidente;374590]I haven't lost power once (streetcharger), nor had 1 day where I couldn't daily my car everywhere regardless of the obstacles OR weather conditions (take THAT air suspension!)  All the while driving comfortably AND lower than most guys on coilovers.  I'm pretty happy...[/QUOTE]

You're my hero =)

[QUOTE=BAHC;374622]so just to beat a dead horse, youre saying that, even when riding dumped, hydros are stiff and limit suspension travel to the point where you feel like a japanese man in the middle of tokyo?[/QUOTE]

It gets stiff when you ride dumped. I was cruising down the freeway next to a VIP 2GS on Tuesday tucking rim with no rubbing. 

Plus, the accumulators are adjustable. You can even shut them off completely and have essentially zero suspension if you wanted to :smiley-rofl:

sooo tempting, im just really worried with the hardline/reliability/maintenance, more so just because i have no experience with it. for me right now its either hydroholic, cup kit, or HPS
 
EDIT: Question, whats this ive been reading about hydros not being a good choice for a unibody car?
 
another question, directed towards OG, but anyone who knows can help...if i was to have BC make me some short, aggressively valved struts, i can essentially acheive what im looking for with uas over it, no?  at 20psi and less, id essentially be riding on the strut.  I cant imagine this being too comfortable, but it should give me coilover like stiffness, essential for a vip car, no?

Im no suspension guru, but I was thinking the other day... So people have coilovers, and it works great. They can be setup and fine tuned for somewhat predictable ride characteristics. But it was static, and people wanted adjustable, so it evolved. People combined coilovers with air (both cups and bags) for adjustability. This was awesome, but the side effect is that it changes the spring rates as ride height changes, potentially throwing off the 'fine tuned' ride characteristics that coils can give you. 

So now you got a new style of hydro's starting to come up (hydropneumatic). Where ride height itself does not directly dictate spring rate (the accumulators do that, or correct me if im wrong lol). And now I'm wondering, assuming what I'm thinking here is correct, will someone combine coilovers with hydro's? Would that be the "holy grail" of adjustable suspension? The fine tuned ride characteristics of coilovers, with hydropneumatic based ride height adjustability that does not change spring rate? I'm thinking of something like a cup kit, but based on hydropneumatic instead of air.

Is my idea retarded? :biggthumpup:

[QUOTE=CrazyHawaiian;374683]Im no suspension guru, but I was thinking the other day... So people have coilovers, and it works great. They can be setup and fine tuned for somewhat predictable ride characteristics. But it was static, and people wanted adjustable, so it evolved. People combined coilovers with air (both cups and bags) for adjustability. This was awesome, but the side effect is that it changes the spring rates as ride height changes, potentially throwing off the 'fine tuned' ride characteristics that coils can give you. 

So now you got a new style of hydro's starting to come up (hydropnmatic). Where ride height itself does not directly dictate spring rate (the accumulators do that, or correct me if im wrong lol). And now I'm wondering, assuming what I'm thinking here is correct, will someone combine coilovers with hydro's? Would that be the "holy grail" of adjustable suspension? The fine tuned ride characteristics of coilovers, with hydropnmatic based ride height adjustability that does not change spring rate? I'm thinking of something like a cup kit, but based on hydropneumatic instead of air.

Is my idea retarded? :biggthumpup:[/QUOTE]

no. that's essentially what kw's HLS setup is, and is something that OCKlasse is working on

my question is, is OCKlasse looking for test vehicles LOL

there is no single best

but prefer Coilovers with bags. but even with that setup, i cant get very high. its more about the body on the ground and throwin reflectors when i drive

[QUOTE=OG;374611]spring rate has more impact on ride quality than damping. spring rate determines how the suspension compresses and rebounds, dampers control how fast it happens. i'm sure that's the over simplified version  but that's what i go by.[/QUOTE]
i somewhat disagree
ive been in cars with rediculously high spring rates that havent been matched, and those that have. with a damper that is matched, its more of a firm ride, that a bone jarring ride. i cant really explain it, but it is night and day

[QUOTE=FLSImages;374703]i somewhat disagree
ive been in cars with rediculously high spring rates that havent been matched, and those that have. with a damper that is matched, its more of a firm ride, that a bone jarring ride. i cant really explain it, but it is night and day[/QUOTE]

a friend who rode in 326power haruguchi's aristo told me he thought the car was on regular coilovers when in fact it was running on 30 kg/mm+ springs front and rear. absurd

[IMG]http://i455.photobucket.com/albums/qq280/afazz65/plumbing/100_1256.jpg[/IMG]

Just to confuse the crap out of yall

[QUOTE=OCKlasse;374626]It gets stiff when you ride dumped.[/QUOTE]
 
i was doing some research on something else that lead me accross some information on hydropnuematic suspensions and it explained it as a naturally progressive rate. this is because the stiffness doubles when the air space is cut in half. sound right?
 
[QUOTE=BAHC;374650]another question, directed towards OG, but anyone who knows can help...if i was to have BC make me some short, aggressively valved struts, i can essentially acheive what im looking for with uas over it, no? at 20psi and less, id essentially be riding on the strut. I cant imagine this being too comfortable, but it should give me coilover like stiffness, essential for a vip car, no?[/QUOTE]
 
kinda, sorta, in theory. the uas bags have a steel sleeve inside, so when deflated it would essentially become solid suspension (the shock may bottom out first but same difference). this is a really sloppy way of achieving your goals though.
 
sounds like you're chasing lift since you're looking for alternatives to cups but after the exact same characteristics (correct me if i'm wrong). in my eyes that knocks bags off the list, since you lose lift range when set up properly for a firm/low ride. hydraulics may satisfy your needs, but there are still things to think about. 
 
[QUOTE=CrazyHawaiian;374683]So now you got a new style of hydro's starting to come up (hydropneumatic). Where ride height itself does not directly dictate spring rate (the accumulators do that, or correct me if im wrong lol). And now I'm wondering, assuming what I'm thinking here is correct, will someone combine coilovers with hydro's? Would that be the "holy grail" of adjustable suspension? The fine tuned ride characteristics of coilovers, with hydropneumatic based ride height adjustability that does not change spring rate? I'm thinking of something like a cup kit, but based on hydropneumatic instead of air.[/QUOTE]
 
hydropneumatic isn't new, it's been around for longer than most (probably all) of us have been alive.
 
as far as the hydrualic cups, they exist. personally i feel like there is no benefit of fluid over air in this application, but i have very set views on how cups should be used.
 
[QUOTE=FLSImages;374703]i somewhat disagree
ive been in cars with rediculously high spring rates that havent been matched, and those that have. with a damper that is matched, its more of a firm ride, that a bone jarring ride. i cant really explain it, but it is night and day[/QUOTE]
 
we're on the same page, i just worded it wrong. the damper should always be matched to the spring rate, but the rate is what determines the [I]firmness. [/I]i should have said firmness rather than ride quality the first time, since they are not the same thing.

[QUOTE=OG;374731]as far as the hydrualic cups, they exist. personally i feel like there is no benefit of fluid over air in this application, but i have very set views on how cups should be used.[/QUOTE]

i'd want to run hydro cups for load leveling, since i always carry people and luggage in the car. hydro cup setup + accuair load leveling = load leveling without spring rate change. yeahhhhh

besides the fact that that's the lamest reason ever...
 
if you are using cups as intended there will always be a rate change because they work by preloading the spring. if you're using them the other way you lose suspension travel when compressed.

[QUOTE=jeebus;374430]...get a lot more clearance than any cup kit on the market can give you.  [/QUOTE]

thats somewhat true. just depends on what coilovers you have. but i do know some friends who has bags+coils and they're full up is not as high as the phantom cup kit on lets say megan coilovers. average height up on the phantom kit is around 3-5 inches.

[QUOTE=cheez80;374502]BAHC, some guys with the platinum vip setup drive aired up all the time, effectively using the cup as a bag replacement. i think you'll be fine driving aired up for slightly longer stretches, but i'll defer to someone who actually has experience.[/QUOTE]

frisco ride up for wekfest we drove aired up on the fuga. on the ride back, we dove with no air. and as for Chris's black 2GS, he drives with no air, even over bumps and speedbumps, he forgets that he has the cup kit.

[QUOTE=brainneeded;374503]i'm sure you could, but the for the price you pay, why would you use it as a bag. i can't imagine it being more forgiving than a bag.[/QUOTE] 
because you can. lifetime warranty on the phantom cup kit btw :biggthumpup:

[QUOTE=eyedea;374512]I would also like to find out the replacement cost of a failed unit if any. I think most of us are apprehensive due to our inexperience with the cup kit type setup.

The general assumption is that its only good for airing up to avoid obstacles and not to be ridden on as a regular uas bag type setup would.[/QUOTE]

phantom cup kit allows you to drive with air or without, your car... your choice. =)

[QUOTE=brainneeded;374583]its strut + spring + cup. to my understanding its similar to bags in terms of plumbing and hardware necessary. you can ride with them up (from my understanding), its just not recommended.[/QUOTE]
kinda sorta.... 

some bag setup is similar to the phantom cup kit setup. all we use is quick connect fittings, just makes life a lot easier. one compressor, one relay, one shoe box size air tank, and no manifolds or valves or solenoids. :giggity:

[QUOTE=OG;374731] 
 
 
kinda, sorta, in theory. the uas bags have a steel sleeve inside, so when deflated it would essentially become solid suspension (the shock may bottom out first but same difference). this is a really sloppy way of achieving your goals though.
 
 
.[/QUOTE]
 
 
was more asking about the UAS for theory, as i agree its the easy way out so to speak.  a cup kit IS what im after, but im just concerned about how reliable the system is if i need to say air up a few inches for a longer stretch of time, as i know this is not how the system is intended to be used.  however, plat vip has said time and time again that their cups are fine either way...is this something unique to their system, universal to all cup kits, or part marketing is beyond me.  also, while i dont want to cut corners, i do need an affordable solution.  if plat vip was willing to get me a deal on the cups for product representation (LOL) then thats one thing..but we'll see.  i plan on rolling around on my coils and custom arms, and just getting the adjustable suspenion later for convenience sake

[QUOTE=OG;374738]besides the fact that that's the lamest reason ever...[/QUOTE]

*shrugs* i still want to do it hahaha

[QUOTE=eyedea;374714][IMG]http://i455.photobucket.com/albums/qq280/afazz65/plumbing/100_1256.jpg[/IMG]

Just to confuse the crap out of yall[/QUOTE]

Not confused =)

[QUOTE=OG;374731]i was doing some research on something else that lead me accross some information on hydropnuematic suspensions and it explained it as a naturally progressive rate. this is because the stiffness doubles when the air space is cut in half. sound right?[/QUOTE]

How I would describe it is since there is less pressure within the system, there is not as much force pushing against the accumulators for them to "properly" do their jobs when hitting a bump. This is not to say they're not working. Just not as softly as usual. 

Once again, changing the charge of the accumulators will change dampening, regardless of hydraulic pressure in the system...

[QUOTE=OG;374731]as far as the hydrualic cups, they exist. personally i feel like there is no benefit of fluid over air in this application, but i have very set views on how cups should be used.[/QUOTE]

There is one big plus to using hydraulics. I don't want to get into too much detail now, but there is a way to utilize a hydraulic cup setup without having to affect your preset height. 

Meaning: There will be a system that replaces your adjustable collar on your coilovers. This replacement is sized directly proportional to the collars. You can still crank your car all the way down completely, and achieve up to 2.5 inches of lift when desired. They will not "raise" your car in the down position like other cup systems out there, which take up precious space on the threads in which to dump your car. 

Still drive or park absolutely dumped as if you were static. Get the lift when you need it. 

Riding with pressure within the system (i.e. lifted) will not tamper with the handling. You are still riding on your coilovers 100%.

[QUOTE=OCKlasse;374800]Meaning: There will be a system that replaces your adjustable collar on your coilovers. This replacement is sized directly proportional to the collars. You can still crank your car all the way down completely, and achieve up to 2.5 inches of lift when desired. They will not "raise" your car in the down position like other cup systems out there, which take up precious space on the threads in which to dump your car.[/QUOTE]
 
this isn't a real issue for cups in general on most vip platforms. most cats are using full tap coilovers which bottom out with threads to spare. the total length is not affected.
 
umbrella replaces the original springs with shorter swift springs so it's definitely not an issue there. 
 
[QUOTE=OCKlasse;374800]Riding with pressure within the system (i.e. lifted) will not tamper with the handling. You are still riding on your coilovers 100%.[/QUOTE]
 
there's always a trade off between preloading the spring and losing suspension travel. if you set them up properly you will change the spring rate. if you set them up with no preload while fully extended you lose suspension  travel when compressed. the former definitely changes handling, the latter potentialy does depending on the sroke of the cups and the damper.

This is designed to be a universal application for many cars. If it doesn't suit your needs then don't buy it. Many cars have the issues I discussed and we'll see how the market responds. 

You sound a little biased towards coils/bags, which is fine, then why make a thread where you're trying to get different opinions and feedback about other options out there? Seems counterproductive.

edit: I see this is structured as a debate thread, fair enough. Another benefit I see to hydraulic cups is lack of bag ruptures. Of course this only pertains to some systems, and not to Platinum's kit. I've seen how much more durable a hydraulic cylinder is in comparison to a pneumatic spring, and I'm a believer :biggthumpup:

[QUOTE=OG;374405]if juice fails i'm not exactly sure what happens but since it ios a pressurized system i'm positive it's not good.[/QUOTE]

The kind of failure you're inferring to is highly unlikely in a hydraulic setup. While the most common failure on a pneumatic setup would be from bag ruptures (especially from this crowd), this does not occur on a hydraulic setup, as its metal cylinder is much thinner, and of course, insusceptible to "blowing."

The only way the car would fail in the way you mention is if you blow a line. This occurs from poor installation. Hydraulic lines are heat resistant, and therefore can be ran above the exhaust tunnel. If the lines are properly installed, and of course, checked once in a blue moon, you will not have any sort of failure. I have never been stuck anywhere due to this.

The only other problematic area would be a power issue, either from improper grounding, dead cell in a battery, sticking solenoid, etc. 

Of course other freak things could occur, but almost all are due to human installation error. Another potential would be not doing proper maintenance on the system. Changing the seals and flushing the fluid every two years or so and charging the batteries (or running a street charger like elpresidente). Hydraulics are meant for industrial, brutal applications. They are designed to take a lot of stress over and over again, and they do very well.

Pick your poison. In almost four years now, the only thing I've had happen on my setup was having a solenoid stick. I pulled my ground, grabbed my spare, and was good to go 10 minutes later.

[QUOTE=OG;374534]care to explain how you a set a damper to match a variable spring rate?[/QUOTE]
pick a psi, have it force tested, valve at that.
for me it would have been 65, 45
thats is what the y33 was at and tucking

[QUOTE=OCKlasse;374830]This is designed to be a universal application for many cars. If it doesn't suit your needs then don't buy it. Many cars have the issues I discussed and we'll see how the market responds. 
 
You sound a little biased towards coils/bags, which is fine, then why make a thread where you're trying to get different opinions and feedback about other options out there? Seems counterproductive.
 
edit: I see this is structured as a debate thread, fair enough. Another benefit I see to hydraulic cups is lack of bag ruptures. Of course this only pertains to some systems, and not to Platinum's kit. I've seen how much more durable a hydraulic cylinder is in comparison to a pneumatic spring, and I'm a believer :biggthumpup:[/QUOTE]
 
you've got it all wrong. this thread is meant to be informative for the community, i just predict debate because that's how everything always goes. it just so happens that i have a decent understanding of how suspension works so i am able to see flaws, misinformation, or ask questions that others may may not.
 
i am definitely not biased towards bags (anyone who knows me persoanlly will laugh that you thought that). i am a admitedly a little biased towards coilovers (and therefore cups) but i'm also a fan of hydraulics in theory. i am, and have been, looking forward to getting some hands on experience with the juice sooner or later, but it will definitely be in ram form vs. cups.
 
[QUOTE=OCKlasse;374833]The kind of failure you're inferring to is highly unlikely in a hydraulic setup. While the most common failure on a pneumatic setup would be from bag ruptures (especially from this crowd), this does not occur on a hydraulic setup, as its metal cylinder is much thinner, and of course, insusceptible to "blowing."
 
The only way the car would fail in the way you mention is if you blow a line. This occurs from poor installation. Hydraulic lines are heat resistant, and therefore can be ran above the exhaust tunnel. If the lines are properly installed, and of course, checked once in a blue moon, you will not have any sort of failure. I have never been stuck anywhere due to this.
 
The only other problematic area would be a power issue, either from improper grounding, dead cell in a battery, sticking solenoid, etc. 
 
Of course other freak things could occur, but almost all are due to human installation error. Another potential would be not doing proper maintenance on the system. Changing the seals and flushing the fluid every two years or so and charging the batteries (or running a street charger like elpresidente). Hydraulics are meant for industrial, brutal applications. They are designed to take a lot of stress over and over again, and they do very well.
 
Pick your poison. In almost four years now, the only thing I've had happen on my setup was having a solenoid stick. I pulled my ground, grabbed my spare, and was good to go 10 minutes later.[/QUOTE]
 
the same can be said for air, and doesn't even need to be said for static suspension. i don't see huydraulics being particularly more relaible than any other properly installed setup (not to say they're less reliable either).
 
my point is that [I]in a worst case scenario,[/I] failure of hydraulics is probably pretty messy as well as dehibalitating. maybe you can shed some light on it for me. if you did rupture a line what would happen?
 
[QUOTE=FLSImages;374905]pick a psi, have it force tested, valve at that.
for me it would have been 65, 45
thats is what the y33 was at and tucking[/QUOTE]
 
my point was that the valving is only matched to that particular setting.

and?
the valving of a coilover is only matched at one setting. dont see the problem here

a coilover goes through it's range of adjustment with a constant spring rate, bags don't.

ehhhh its not too much of a change
and a progressive spring coilover doesnt....just saying

lol.
 
you could also argue that if the ride height is set via coilover adjustment at a certain psi then it is the same as a coilover. i've thought out a similar setup that i may try but it would  have to be a 3rd car since the other 2 options are more interesting to me. the only real benefit that i can think of for a setup like this is the ability to lay out. not super important to me.

ok, now that im back from blowing stupid money at easyriders.jp on my bike here is what i was trying to say

at the psi's i described above, i had around 2" from 0psi to say 140psi adjustment i tested my setup at 4.25" inches total travel from 0-140psi. 
at said ride height, if the dampers were valved for that theoretical spring rate, as long as you stay there, with the weight load about the same, it would handle perfectly. even on the dampers i had it handled freaking amazingly. people that rode in the car had no clue it was on air. it wont be soft and cushy either way since the coilover damper just isnt made that for the most part for the market.

it isnt a perfect option. but for my driveway entrance i had, 2" was just enough to get in with barely scraping, then going back to ride height. i still hit alot of shit, i stil broke bumpers on the regular, but 2" is better than nothing. i couldnt be static cause well...i couldnt get in my driveway. 
its a hard situation, and at the time i was the only one doing hte y33 to s chassis shit, so i was figuring that all out too. but after my experience, UAS on a performance coilover is my choice. i am looking into hydros again, but i have a UAS kit at the house im prolly gonna use on the miata

[QUOTE=FLSImages;374929]space saved for when i get back from riding the bike[/QUOTE]

Space saved for when He ^ gets back from riding his bike.

space saved for whatever nonsense is about to occur.

I'm pretty town between a few setups currently. 

I have and always will be partial to coilovers, with no air. However, this does present a lot of problems, if the car actually needs to be driven like a normal car. Or maybe I'm just getting old??.. haha 

Anyway, I'm going to try out Vans old set up, which is essentially just a raised lower mount air set up. This will hopefully provide a decent ride quality (enough psi in the bags to ride good) even at tire tucking height. It will also allow the car to go extremely low when parked. The only real limit to this setup is it won't go monster truck, but why people need 3" of wheel gap to clear anything I'll never know. I've driven a bunch of really low static cars, so an inch or so of wheel gap at full up is more than enough to clear anything. 

However, if this doesn't work... I'm switching to juice or coils and cups (hydro *cough cough or air). There just needs to be a decent cup alternative (i.e. affordable). Cups are extremely simple, there is no need to require the purchase of the compressor and blah blah, it's just not necessary. Also, it's not hard to make cups universal, I'm not sure why this hasn't been done yet?

[QUOTE=OG;374922]you've got it all wrong. this thread is meant to be informative for the community, i just predict debate because that's how everything always goes. it just so happens that i have a decent understanding of how suspension works so i am able to see flaws, misinformation, or ask questions that others may may not.
 
i am definitely not biased towards bags (anyone who knows me persoanlly will laugh that you thought that). i am a admitedly a little biased towards coilovers (and therefore cups) but i'm also a fan of hydraulics in theory. i am, and have been, looking forward to getting some hands on experience with the juice sooner or later, but it will definitely be in ram form vs. cups.
 

 
the same can be said for air, and doesn't even need to be said for static suspension. i don't see huydraulics being particularly more relaible than any other properly installed setup (not to say they're less reliable either).
 
my point is that [I]in a worst case scenario,[/I] failure of hydraulics is probably pretty messy as well as dehibalitating. maybe you can shed some light on it for me. if you did rupture a line what would happen?
 

 
my point was that the valving is only matched to that particular setting.[/QUOTE]

Worst case scenario, sure. What happens is any fluid in that line would come out. Keep in mind that hydraulic line is not the same as typical air line either. It's much more durable.

You did not refute the fact that a hydraulic cylinder is not susceptible to rupturing like a bag. That is a very common issue for this community, who like to drive very low with very aggressively-fitting wheels.  Wouldn't you agree that adds to reliability?

[QUOTE=jzz30tt;374947]The only real limit to this setup is it won't go monster truck, but why people need 3" of wheel gap to clear anything I'll never know. I've driven a bunch of really low static cars, so an inch or so of wheel gap at full up is more than enough to clear anything. [/QUOTE]

ive wondered the same thing having driven cars that were extremely low myself lol.

[QUOTE=FLSImages;374929]space saved for when i get back from riding the bike[/QUOTE]Classic Grant ...
 
[QUOTE=eyedea;374937]Space saved for when He ^ gets back from riding his bike.[/QUOTE] Epic response ... 
 
[QUOTE=OG;374938]space saved for whatever nonsense is about to occur.[/QUOTE] :smiley-rofl:lmao 
 
 
its great to have the Fourm heavy weights bashing it out on the  same thread trying to figure out  what is best for  way to ride low in a car when they ALL Have different platfroms .. ..

For those who wonder why you need 3" of height to clear any obstacle, please try driving up my driveway.  

I went Air YEARS ago because I merely had no choice.  Not because I was trying to drive lower, park lower, or what not.  I wanted to get my car in and out of my driveway without having to spend time in the street removing the JP bumper and adjusting the coilovers.  Stock height, I would scrape my stock front bumper going up my driveway.  Not fun... I love my house and I love living in San Francisco.  however, I had to help adapt driving my car again.  Being "static" wasn't going to cut it sadly.  

As for what suspension I have?  Thats a post for another day...

If I had a failure, I wouldn't have any real issue other than having to turn slower due to current front clearance.  In other words, I can still turn full down, but it will barely rub and I wouldn't want to damage my front fenders hitting a bump at speed.  But I can drive straight FULLY dumped without issue after I radiused and tubbed the fenders.  Changing lines only took about an hour tops (start to driving).  I had to do it once because I pinched a line by accident when I had it up adjusting the collars and hadn't noticed that I moved a line bracket, my fault, not the suspensions fault.  But it was easy.  And in the mean time (waiting to get my replacement line which was only one day), I drove full down back and forth to work...just slower, haha.  Got to do what you've got to do.

IMO the best suspension is whatever suits your needs. you can name a lot of systems, have all the pros and cons of each but in the end it really depends on the driver's preference. 


[QUOTE=airmax;374966]ive wondered the same thing having driven cars that were extremely low myself lol.[/QUOTE]

you know that not all inclines and driveways are dumped friendly. I prefer to not scrape or crack something every time I go up an incline.

[QUOTE=MrExecutiv;374992]

you know that not all inclines and driveways are dumped friendly. I prefer to not scrape or crack something every time I go up an incline.[/QUOTE]

There are a lot of OEM suspension/cars that are lower than most full up air heights...

M3's have about an inch wheel gap, i wouldn't consider the car low by any means.

[QUOTE=jzz30tt;375005]There are a lot of OEM suspension/cars that are lower than most full up air heights...

M3's have about an inch wheel gap, i wouldn't consider the car low by any means.[/QUOTE]

most bmws in general have a smaller wheel gap on their oem setups than most cars, but at the same time cant really call it low either. Good eye

[QUOTE=OCKlasse;374961]Worst case scenario, sure. What happens is any fluid in that line would come out. Keep in mind that hydraulic line is not the same as typical air line either. It's much more durable.[/QUOTE]
 
what about lift? would the entire car lay out or would you just lose a corner?
 
[QUOTE=OCKlasse;374961]You did not refute the fact that a hydraulic cylinder is not susceptible to rupturing like a bag. That is a very common issue for this community, who like to drive very low with very aggressively-fitting wheels. Wouldn't you agree that adds to reliability?[/QUOTE]
 
bag issues are usually due to bad product selection. this is part of "proper installation" imo.

[QUOTE=MrExecutiv;374992]you know that not all inclines and driveways are dumped friendly. I prefer to not scrape or crack something every time I go up an incline.[/QUOTE]

at best, the lift you get from your cups get doesnt give you near a 3" gap lol.

[QUOTE=OCKlasse;374796]Not confused =)[/QUOTE]

+1

[QUOTE=MrExecutiv;374992]IMO the best suspension is whatever suits your needs. you can name a lot of systems, have all the pros and cons of each but in the end it really depends on the driver's preference.[/QUOTE]
 
true. this discussion always seems to turn into "(insert your suspension of choice) is better than everything in every way" instead of simple discussion over function/pros/cons (which i think would help ppl select what suits them best)

^^ which is exactly what I did.  I have used all the suspension types listed in this thread and hence have based my preference upon my experiences.  This includes cups, although not in a personal car (they were on a 360).  When I saw you post this thread, I knew it would be an interesting discussion, but I also figured some bias would occur which is also why I knew I had to get involved in this thread.

To me, the most convenient solution for comfortable daily low driving life is hydropnuematic suspension.  And I'd buy it again...Am I biased?  No, not really.  I've bought all the rest (minus cups) but used all of them.  Bias would be me making personal gain off of my opinion..I don't gain anything here...but my opinion is sound.

i wish we could get some actual information rather than people just stating what they use and/or have used. here, let me get something started:
 
[B]coilovers[/B]
 

pros:
[LIST]
[*](full tap) full travel when adjusted properly
[*]generally adequate spring rates for low driving (custom rates are becoming more readily available)
[*]consistent geometry
[/LIST]cons:
[LIST]
[*]not height adjustable
[*]maintenance recommended
[/LIST][B]cups[/B]
 
pros:
[LIST]
[*]same as coilovers
[/LIST]cons:
[LIST]
[*]additional electrical circuits
[*]additonal air system
[*]cost
[/LIST] 
[B]bags[/B]
 
pros:
[LIST]
[*]height adjustable
[*]can be cost effective
[/LIST]cons:
[LIST]
[*]loss of suspension travel at low psi
[*]effective spring rate : psi trade off
[*]geometry changes throughout stroke
[*]additional electrical circuit
[*]additional air system
[*]dehabilitating failure
[/LIST][B]hydraulics[/B]
 
pros:
[LIST]
[*]height adjustable
[*]tunable linear effective spring rate
[*]cost effective (?)
[/LIST]cons:
[LIST]
[*]additional electical circuit
[*]additonal hydraulic system
[*]estimated ride height (? - no gauges or presets that i know of)
[*]dehabilitating failure (?)
[*]maintenance recommended (?)
[/LIST]feel free to copy/paste/add your insight. this is more what i had in mind, not just "i like this".

Haha, ok, see that makes a lot more sense.  I'll have to sit down when I have time.  I hear my daughter trying to get my attention..so it'll have to wait.

[B]coilovers[/B]
 

pros:
[LIST]
[*](full tap) full travel when adjusted properly
[*]generally adequate spring rates for low driving (custom rates are becoming more readily available)
[*]consistent geometry
[/LIST]
cons:
[LIST]
[*]not height adjustable (on-the-fly)
[*]maintenance recommended
[/LIST]
[B]cups[/B]
 
pros:
[LIST]
[*]same as coilovers
[*]on-the-fly adjustability
[/LIST]
cons:
[LIST]
[*]additional electrical circuits
[*]additonal air system
[*]cost
[/LIST]
[B]bags[/B]
 
pros:
[LIST]
[*]height adjustable
[*]can be cost effective
[/LIST]
cons:
[LIST]
[*]on-the-fly adjustability
[*]loss of suspension travel at low psi
[*]effective spring rate : psi trade off
[*]geometry changes throughout stroke
[*]additional electrical circuit
[*]additional air system
[*]dehabilitating failure
[*]maintenance recommended (emptying water out of tank, etc.)
[/LIST]
[B]hydraulics[/B]
 
pros:
[LIST]
[*]no queue if air tank empty
[*]on-the-fly adjustability
[*]tunable linear effective spring rate
[*]cost effective (?)
[*]1 5/8" hydraulic cylinder; no rubbing conerns
[/LIST]
cons:
[LIST]
[*]minimum one battery required (12v or more)
[*]additional electrical circuit
[*]additional hydraulic system
[*]estimated ride height (Accuair E-Level System will work with certain hydraulic setups)
[*]dehabilitating failure (?)
[*]maintenance recommended
[/LIST]
feel free to copy/paste/add your insight. this is more what i had in mind, not just "i like this"

Bump stops,

Pros, doesnt change so you can get uber tight fitment

Cons, it rides like crap

[QUOTE=Kouki Monster;375135]Bump stops,
 
Pros, doesnt change so you can get uber tight fitment
 
Cons, it rides like crap[/QUOTE]
 
lol.
 
con: look like a 16 year old in a civic with cut springs over blown shocks.

Hahahahaha!!!

on 40k springs might as well

[B]coilovers[/B]
 

pros:
[LIST]
[*](full tap) full travel when adjusted properly
[*]generally adequate spring rates for low driving (custom rates are becoming more readily available)
[*]consistent geometry
[/LIST]
cons:
[LIST]
[*]not height adjustable (on-the-fly)
[*]maintenance recommended
[/LIST]
[B]cups[/B]
 
pros:
[LIST]
[*]same as coilovers
[*]on-the-fly adjustability
[/LIST]
cons:
[LIST]
[*]additional electrical circuits
[*]additonal air system
[*]cost
[/LIST]
[B]bags[/B]
 
pros:
[LIST]
[*]height adjustable
[*]can be cost effective
[/LIST]
cons:
[LIST]
[*]on-the-fly adjustability
[*]loss of suspension travel at low psi
[*]effective spring rate : psi trade off (acts as progressive spring rate)
[*]geometry changes throughout stroke (no more than a spring)
[*]additional electrical circuit
[*]additional air system
[*]dehabilitating failure( depending on setup)
[*]maintenance recommended (emptying water out of tank, etc.)
[/LIST]
[B]hydraulics[/B]
 
pros:
[LIST]
[*]no queue if air tank empty
[*]on-the-fly adjustability
[*]tunable linear effective spring rate
[*]cost effective (?)
[*]1 5/8" hydraulic cylinder; no rubbing conerns
[/LIST]
cons:
[LIST]
[*]minimum one battery required (12v or more)
[*]additional electrical circuit
[*]additional hydraulic system
[*]estimated ride height (Accuair E-Level System will work with certain hydraulic setups)
[*]dehabilitating failure (?)
[*]maintenance recommended
[/LIST]
added a few things

so i got to ride in a crown athelete yesterday i did a tire change on (215/35/19 o 9j, 225/35 on 11j) at work. no pics, but this thing was beautiful. perfect flushness, got stuck on the 2 inch incline to get into the work bay. had to sit on the left side of the trunk to get traction (get an LSD people) full youzeland suspension parts, custom 32k27k spring setups on revalved coils. I gotta say, a good suspension setup is worth all the money. it rode like butter. i mean, dont get me wrong, it was stiff, but a different stiff. it was a fluid stiff, but you arent bouncing around everywhere cause your shocks are overdampened. it was amazing

all this thinking about damping has me considering getting coils with seperate rebound/compression adjustment.

gat damn at 225 on an 11" and at 32kF27kR spring rate

this is a great thread. coils is fun but until NY steps its game up to fix its pothole infested highways then coils will destroy your car. coils + bag still seems a good hybrid.

[B]coilovers[/B]
 

pros:
[LIST]
[*](full tap) full travel when adjusted properly
[*]generally adequate spring rates for low driving (custom rates are becoming more readily available)
[*]consistent geometry
[/LIST]
cons:
[LIST]
[*]not height adjustable (on-the-fly)
[*]maintenance recommended
[/LIST]
[B]cups[/B]
 
pros:
[LIST]
[*]same as coilovers
[*]on-the-fly adjustability
[/LIST]
cons:
[LIST]
[*]additional electrical circuits
[*]additonal air system
[*]cost
[/LIST]
[B]bags[/B]
 
pros:
[LIST]
[*]on-the-fly adjustability
[*]can be cost effective
[/LIST]
cons:

[LIST]
[*]loss of suspension travel at low psi
[*]effective spring rate : psi trade off (acts as progressive spring rate)
[*]geometry changes throughout stroke (no more than a spring)
[*]additional electrical circuit
[*]additional air system
[*]dehabilitating failure (depending on setup)
[*]maintenance recommended (emptying water out of tank, etc.)
[/LIST]
[B]hydraulics[/B]
 
pros:
[LIST]
[*]no queue if air tank empty
[*]on-the-fly adjustability
[*]tunable linear effective spring rate
[*]1 5/8" hydraulic cylinder; no rubbing concerns
[/LIST]
cons:
[LIST]
[*]minimum one battery required (12v or more)
[*]additional electrical circuit
[*]additional hydraulic system
[*]estimated ride height (Accuair E-Level System will work with certain hydraulic setups)
[*]dehabilitating failure (depending on setup)
[*]maintenance recommended
[/LIST]

emptying a water trap is considered mainenance? lol.
 
i had though of some other stuff earlier... damn.
 
kind of wondering about compression vs. rebound on the juice. seems like it would be equal, but lower compression damping is preferable.

[QUOTE=OG;375217]emptying a water trap is considered mainenance? lol.
 
i had though of some other stuff earlier... damn.
 
kind of wondering about compression vs. rebound on the juice. seems like it would be equal, but lower compression damping is preferable.[/QUOTE]

Maintenance involves anything making you go out of your way. People also consider hooking a battery to a charger maintenance...

As far as your second comment, I don't know? LOL. Come out to CA and take a ride in my car.

how bout i just cop a setup of my own? gears are ticking, master plans are being formed.

[QUOTE=OG;375224]how bout i just cop a setup of my own? gears are ticking, master plans are being formed.[/QUOTE]
WINNING...
[IMG]http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_43KLeLCgREE/RgND97h_DEI/AAAAAAAAAE4/wKA2yTQ_Cvw/s400/charlie+sheen.jpg[/IMG]

^  Tiger blood status.

charley sheen is the new chuck norris... except chuck norris sucks.

[QUOTE=OG;375188]all this thinking about damping has me considering getting coils with seperate rebound/compression adjustment.[/QUOTE]

i've been thinking about that on a set of zeals for the LS hahaha. i've always wanted to run a double adjustable shock and remote reservoirs, just so i can shit on the evo/m3/sti drivers around here.

i may try r32 gtr coils with independent adjustment on the q. gotta see if i can find a local shop to help me with the in depth stuff first.

[QUOTE=OG;375247]i may try r32 gtr coils with independent adjustment on the q. gotta see if i can find a local shop to help me with the in depth stuff first.[/QUOTE]

nice, keep us posted. that sounds super interesting

I rode in an E46 M3 with Moton coilovers and it was the harshest-riding vehicle I have ever been in. Why anyone with a VIP car wants his vehicle to ride like that is beyond me...

Looking good sometimes isnt comfortable. It is rare to have both.

[QUOTE=OCKlasse;375255]I rode in an E46 M3 with Moton coilovers and it was the harshest-riding vehicle I have ever been in. Why anyone with a VIP car wants his vehicle to ride like that is beyond me...[/QUOTE]
 
[QUOTE=Kouki Monster;375278]Looking good sometimes isnt comfortable. It is rare to have both.[/QUOTE]
 
the lower you ride the firmer the suspension needs to be. that's just how it is.

[QUOTE=OG;375291]the lower you ride the firmer the suspension needs to be. that's just how it is.[/QUOTE]
Remember that suspension set-up you said you wanted to try?  Yes, try it.

haha...

Just doesn't seem "VIP" to be bouncing around in your seat going over a bump =)

If I drive at the height all you guys love (lip right at fender), my car still rides fairly decent and I don't go bouncing around everywhere. Of course I have to be careful not to have the wheel turned and hit a dip, but it's not uncomfortable by any means. I guess my fitment is nowhere near as aggressive though, and my car tucks a considerable amount.

so anyone know if the ability to ride with air in the cups (i know, not the purpose of cups) is something exclusive to only the plat vip cups for some reason?  im not talking 24/7..buy say maybe ten minutes for a bad stretch of highway.

[QUOTE=elpresidente;375301]Remember that suspension set-up you said you wanted to try? Yes, try it.[/QUOTE]
 
i've had it planned out for a while. when i do it i'll be running a 12v system with >1K psi accumlators. i'm not looking for a new ride quality, just looking to recreate coilovers with lift. cups are the obvious choice but i'd like to have experience setting up mutiple setups the same way.
 
[QUOTE=OCKlasse;375323]If I drive at the height all you guys love (lip right at fender), my car still rides fairly decent and I don't go bouncing around everywhere. Of course I have to be careful not to have the wheel turned and hit a dip, but it's not uncomfortable by any means. I guess my fitment is nowhere near as aggressive though, and my car tucks a considerable amount.[/QUOTE]
 
i got another question. when the rams are fully collapsed do they bottom out or is there still travel? what i'm thinking is a lift only system where ride height is full down.
 
[QUOTE=BAHC;375419]so anyone know if the ability to ride with air in the cups (i know, not the purpose of cups) is something exclusive to only the plat vip cups for some reason? im not talking 24/7..buy say maybe ten minutes for a bad stretch of highway.[/QUOTE]
 
umbrella advertises their system as "fully functional while driving". take that as you will.

[QUOTE=OG;375433] 
 
umbrella advertises their system as "fully functional while driving". take that as you will.[/QUOTE]
 
 
is umbrella a Japanese company saying "yes" to my question in engrish, or are they an American company avoiding the question?  haha

umbrella is an american company. the reply is mine (disclaimer - i do not speak for umbrella, i speak for original garage). umbrella builds their product to be used as intented. they are not focused on the vip market, therefore there is no marketing to make people think they are bag replacments. cups are a different design with a different purpose.
 
they advertise as "fully functional while driving" meaning you can raise and lower the car while moving. there's nothing saying you can't drive 1,000,000 miles between those 2 actions, but there's nothing saying you can either.

i have these in one of my trucks
[img]http://powerandplay.com/truck_accessories_parts/Air_Lift_Company_60820/Air_Lift_Company_60820.jpg[/img]
YEAH

^ LOL! this guy.

bag kit lol. we put them on cobras and gto's lol.

"best" is very subjective. it depends on what your needs and wants are. im very happy with my uas on hks coilover setup.

^ care to elaborate?  the thread will get no where if everyone just shouts out what theyre using.  why are you satisfied with your uas over hks?  how does it fit your needs and wants?  how do you use the system (drive low, park lower/drive high park slammed etc)?  any short comings you would like to address in the future?  is it comfy but bouncy? stiff but uncomfortable?

[QUOTE=BAHC;375419]so anyone know if the ability to ride with air in the cups (i know, not the purpose of cups) is something exclusive to only the plat vip cups for some reason? im not talking 24/7..buy say maybe ten minutes for a bad stretch of highway.[/QUOTE]
 
i got an official answer on this. first off, i was asked to stress that cups are not designed to be driven on inflated (which i did anyway). when set up properly this puts the suspension in a high stress position (topped out). as for the question, small intervals of inflated driving are absolutely fine. however, should there be a warranty issue (keep in mind that umbrella has never had a cup come back for failure) the item will be inspected to determine if the damage was caused by inproper use. hope that helps.

[QUOTE=OG;375660]i got an official answer on this. first off, i was asked to stress that cups are not designed to be driven on inflated (which i did anyway). when set up properly this puts the suspension in a high stress position (topped out). as for the question, small intervals of inflated driving are absolutely fine. however, should there be a warranty issue (keep in mind that umbrella has never had a cup come back for failure) the item will be inspected to determine if the damage was caused by inproper use. hope that helps.[/QUOTE]
 
 
excellent, thanks for going tot he source, mike.  one last question, one that probably you can answer yourself.  Do the cups work as deflated and full inflated, or can you change the psi, similar to bags.  assuming you can change the psi, im also assuming the risk of damage increases with the increase of psi.

again, this is a matter of design. cups are not designed to provide adjustable ride height, they are lift mechanisms. that  being said, there's no reason you need to lift 100% to clear obstacles. another point to note is that there are no gauges so you won't know what psi you are at.
 
ravi (owner of  umbrella) has told me that he is nervously excited about the vip market and has given me the unofficial position as ambassador. my "job" entails me helping people understand the proper way to use cups and helping determine if they are correct for the user's appllication. umbrella is very explicit about their kits being used complete and correctly. this avoids issues that could potentially tarnish the brand name. i've even been asked to be selective in who i sell the kits to.

[QUOTE=BAHC;375669]excellent, thanks for going tot he source, mike.  one last question, one that probably you can answer yourself.  Do the cups work as deflated and full inflated, or can you change the psi, similar to bags.  assuming you can change the psi, im also assuming the risk of damage increases with the increase of psi.[/QUOTE]

Theoretically yes. Realistically no...lol 

You would need to add some gauges, and possibly valves. Although you could make it work with 4. The issue is there isn't a ton of travel to begin with, so trying to fine tune it would probably be a pita. Also, correct me if I'm wrong here, but it takes much less psi to inflate or raise the car vs bags.

less volume not less psi.

aright, cool, thanks mike.  just trying to fully understand and weigh my options.  hopefully someone from plat vip can chime in on:
 
[QUOTE=BAHC;374747]was more asking about the UAS for theory, as i agree its the easy way out so to speak. a cup kit IS what im after, but im just concerned about how reliable the system is if i need to say air up a few inches for a longer stretch of time, as i know this is not how the system is intended to be used. [B]however, plat vip has said time and time again that their cups are fine either way...is this something unique to their system, universal to all cup kits, or part marketing is beyond me[/B]. also, while i dont want to cut corners, i do need an affordable solution. if plat vip was willing to get me a deal on the cups for product representation (LOL) then thats one thing..but we'll see. i plan on rolling around on my coils and custom arms, and just getting the adjustable suspenion later for convenience sake[/QUOTE]
 
 
i wanna know what makes their product so different from every other cup on the market

there is no difference. the only thing to take from their policy is that they will warranty the cups regardless of how they are used (umbrella will not). the concept is the same and the right way is still the right way. i personally feel like they're telling the cosumer what they want to hear instead of informing them.

Hydraulic cups don't have these dilemmas :)

what dilema is that? unless it is a completely different design they function the same, just with fluid instead of air.
 
(semi-related rant)
 
cups were developed for exotic sports cars that have low ground clearance off the showroom floor. they were designed not to alter the factory suspension but offer lift for bumps, inclines, trailors, etc. they keep the factory travel, geometry, ride quality, etc.
 
it was realized that this would be beneficial to extremely lowered cars as well so we had systems like skipper, top secret, and bold world (all roberuta made).
 
a couple american comanies catch on and start producing quality kits. one company decides to say you can ride on them inflated and all of a sudden it's standard? [I]setting up coils for fully extended ride height is not an issue because if that's how you do it you're doing it wrong.[/I] they are intended to be set up at minimum height and lift, not maximum height and drop. it seems to me the vip market should be embrasing this product that allows you to ride lower than before on proper suspension but instead it seems like many want to negate their benefits by improperly installing them.
 
(hypothetical) what would happen if you dialied you car in to be driven with cups inflated:
 
1) you would have predictable/correctable geometry at ride height... cool.
2) you would have proper spring rate and damping. 
3) you would only have full travel at full inflation. with 3-5" of stroke (depending on brand) you could easily be bottomed out when compressed.
4) you have lost lift, which is the point anyway. right?
5) say that kit that "can be driven inflated" fails. you may have a warranty but in the meantime your car is stuck on the ground.
 
capitilizing off the ignorance concerning this "feature" is straight hype.

All I know is I would use them for everything if i needed them. But not at that point yet. Bags are great and all.. but you cant get me away from coilovers. you can dial in ride so much easier, and cups make it easier to get over speed bumps or what ever you encounter. I would put them on my s14 if I decide that its not low enough haha

[QUOTE=OG;375853]what dilema is that? unless it is a completely different design they function the same, just with fluid instead of air.[/QUOTE]

It does not matter whether the unit is fully pressurized or not.  This is what I've been saying all along! :runcoold:

[QUOTE=OCKlasse;375890]It does not matter whether the unit is fully pressurized or not. This is what I've been saying all along! :runcoold:[/QUOTE]
 
you've been saying it, but you have not given any description of function that supports it. because i know how these things work i know that it can't "not matter" unless it is a completely new design.
 
*edit - also, you mentioned some systems work with accuair. can you elaborate?

i'm guessing hook up the pumps and dumps to the unit rather than valves?

You're confusing hydopneumatic suspension with hydraulic cups...

I am developing a coilover-based hydraulic cup system. 

This is very different than the hydraulics with accumulators I have in my car now...

And yes, Accuair works on certain hydraulic setups...two pump four dumps, and one pump eight dumps would be the best.

[QUOTE=OCKlasse;376080]You're confusing hydopneumatic suspension with hydraulic cups...
 
I am developing a coilover-based hydraulic cup system.[/QUOTE]
 
i'm not confusing anything unless it's because of lack of information. i understand it's in development and you obviously want to keep it under wraps, but making the claim that "It does not matter whether the unit is fully pressurized or not",  based solely on reliability is misinforming.
 
[IMG]http://i214.photobucket.com/albums/cc188/BLACKonBLACK98/94701f31.jpg[/IMG]
 
there are 5 factors to cups:
 
geometry - this can only be dialed in at one height. if it is dialed in at low height then your geometry will only be altered when lifted for obstacles. if dialed in at max height it will be altered at low (ride) height. this is comparable to dropping your car 2-5" (depending on suspension/cup kit) and not getting an alignment. 
 
preload - this is only affected when cups are set up properly. preload is used to lift the car which is why ride quality decreases.
 
travel/total length - when set up properly the total length is increased by topping out the suspension. when set up for fully extended ride height, total length is altered by losing travel (potentially bottoming out depending on  stroke of coils/cups). 
 
lift - if set up properly you lift from a low point. if set up fully extended that's it, you're not going any higher. this means it must be set high enough to clear obstacles (see: geometry and travel).
 
reliability - after the other 4 factors are considered does it really matter whether or not a company will warranty a cup that has been used improperly? do it the right way and avoid the issue altogether.

My unit threads onto the coilover. A plate replaces the adjustable collars, and since it replaces them, it does not alter how low the car can now go...it does not sit above the coilovers like air cups do.

What I mean by my other statement is that a purely hydraulic setup locks in place at any height adjusted to. Meaning, that the unit can be all the way down, all the way up, or anywhere in between, and it is still solely the coilover that is acting as your suspension. Since fluid does not compress like air does, there is no interference like there is with an air cup, since air does after-all, compress.

[QUOTE=OCKlasse;376306]My unit threads onto the coilover. A plate replaces the adjustable collars, and since it replaces them, it does not alter how low the car can now go...it does not sit above the coilovers like air cups do.[/QUOTE]
 
you're stressing a marginal difference that hydraulic cups may not even be on the winning side of. pneumatic cups replace the upper spring perch completely, so the only added height is the thickness of the moving parts (which all cups will have).
 
either way, this is a non issue on full tap coilovers, which pretty much everybody uses. the only thing that will alter minimum ride height (full tap coilovers) is if the lower bracket binds to the lower spring perch before bottoming out. i've only seen this happen once (alex's y33 insurance coilovers on here, never in real life).
 
even if it was to be an issue, and with umbrella only afaik, a swift spring upgrade is included which could compensate for this with shorter springs. 
 
[QUOTE=OCKlasse;376306]What I mean by my other statement is that a purely hydraulic setup locks in place at any height adjusted to. Meaning, that the unit can be all the way down, all the way up, or anywhere in between, and it is still solely the coilover that is acting as your suspension. Since fluid does not compress like air does, there is no interference like there is with an air cup, since air does after-all, compress.[/QUOTE]
 
i undertsand that fluid doesn't compress (the single best feature of hydraulics), but when you consider the other aspects of suspension function it's a non issue. you''re looking at this from a pure adjustability stand point instead of suspension as a whole.
 
there is no inteferance using pneumatic cups [I]as intended[/I]. when collased they act as a upper spring perch only.  saying so is taking them out of of their proper use and comparing to them. it's liike saying boat "a" is better on the water than car "b".
 
i still say that if you want fullly adjustable suspension juice (rams) or bags are the way to go. if you want the benefits of coilovers, with added lift for obstacle maneuvering, then cups are for you. i personally still do not see a benefit of fluid over air in this application.

This is the last response, and then I'm over it. You'll find a way to refute anything I bring up. I am over beating a dead horse. :shrug:

[QUOTE=OG;376316]you're stressing a marginal difference that hydraulic  cups may not even be on the winning side of. pneumatic cups replace the  upper spring perch completely, so the only added height is the thickness  of the moving parts (which all cups will have).[/QUOTE]

Marginal to you, maybe, but for someone looking to go as low as possible it makes a difference. I don't know about you, but I want a bolt-in system without having to buy shorter springs.  

[QUOTE=OG;376316]i undertsand that fluid doesn't compress (the single best feature of  hydraulics), but when you consider the other aspects of suspension  function it's a non issue. you''re looking at this from a pure  adjustability stand point instead of suspension as a whole.
 
there is no inteferance using pneumatic cups [I]as intended[/I]. when  collased they act as a upper spring perch only.  saying so is taking  them out of of their proper use and comparing to them. it's liike saying  boat "a" is better on the water than car "b"[/QUOTE]

Yeah, when they're all the way down they don't affect the suspension. What about people who want to drive lifted up? I want a system that works as [B]I[/B] intend it: To use it fully up or down and not have it interfere with the suspension.

[QUOTE=OG;376316]i still say that if you want fullly adjustable suspension juice (rams)  or bags are the way to go. if you want the benefits of coilovers, with  added lift for obstacle maneuvering, then cups are for you. i personally  still do not see a benefit of fluid over air in this  application.[/QUOTE]

That's fine...and I see a benefit to it. We'll see how the market responds. This is not primarily being designed for the VIP community. Most coilovers for most applications have a limited amount of drop one can achieve, and that's it. I want to allow maximum drop possible.

That's it.

Brandon are you adjusting the overall length, moving the shock up and down by turning it with the hydro piece? Or are you moving the spring up/down

[QUOTE=luciferi;376391]Brandon are you adjusting the overall length, moving the shock up and down by turning it with the hydro piece? Or are you moving the spring up/down[/QUOTE]

I'll show you tomorrow at the show.

[QUOTE=OCKlasse;376398]I'll show you tomorrow at the show.[/QUOTE]

Dropped off earlier, I am parked next to perfect poise /aon. See you tomorrow

[QUOTE=OCKlasse;376385]This is the last response, and then I'm over it. You'll find a way to refute anything I bring up. I am over beating a dead horse. :shrug:[/QUOTE]
 
common bro, you're acting like i'm against your design. the issues i list are issues with all cups, not just hydraulic based systems. you're basing claims of superiority on insignificant facts, while completely ignoring functionality issues.
 
i'm going to leave the rest of the comments alone, since it's all there in [I]fact[/I]. if you want to discuss it more in private feel free to pm me. i am more than willing to have an intelligent discussion on this topic any time.
 
[I]*edit - i'm going to illustrate the points i have already made since my posting has become an issue. let me be very clear on this: this is not a cups vs. anything debate, nor a hydraulic vs. pneumatic argument. this is solely about the function of ALL cups.[/I]
 
[IMG]http://i214.photobucket.com/albums/cc188/BLACKonBLACK98/52ebb137.gif[/IMG]

figure a shows a cup/coilover system initially set up with compressed cups. as you can see travel is normal and geometry has been set up for this height. figure b shows the same system during lift. lift happens when the spring has been preloaded to recover droop. geometry has now been altered and the damper has been topped out.

figure c shows the same cup kit intially set up fully extended. at this height (maximum) all geometry is correct and travel is normal. figure d shows what happens when the cups are compressed. again, geometry is altered and this time suspension travel is lost.

it boils down to whether you want the car to handle correctly at it's maximum or minimum height (keep in mind that maximum height must be high enough to clear any obstacles you may encounter).

my statement that i don't see any benefit of fluid over air in this application is my [I]opinion[/I], the rest of this is indisputable fact.

If you look over your posts in this thread OG, there is clear bias towards air cups in general and constant reference to cups with any and everything.  

You're still going about it the wrong way (As I already stated).  Hence the reason I said what I did not long ago.  Try it for yourself and you'll see.  Remember, I've had experience with ALL of these systems minus the new one B is working on.  So I'm not just saying hey, look at my suspension it's the best because I say so .  No, I'm basing it off real world experience in driving lower than most people ever will on a daily basis which is CLEARLY functionality at it's best (and as I said before, I don't sell it, I'm a consumer of it..I paid for it).

You're clearly making it an argument, not a discussion.  I will close this thread if it can't stay on track.  Serious talk...

[QUOTE=OCKlasse;376385]You'll find a way to refute anything I bring up. I am over beating a dead horse. [/QUOTE]

Nailed it right on the occipitus.......

[QUOTE=OG;376416]figure a shows a cup/coilover system initially set up with compressed cups. as you can see travel is normal and geometry has been set up for this height. figure b shows the same system during lift. lift happens when the spring has been preloaded to recover droop. geometry has now been altered and the damper has been topped out.

figure c shows the same cup kit intially set up fully extended. at this height (maximum) all geometry is correct and travel is normal. figure d shows what happens when the cups are compressed. again, geometry is altered and this time suspension travel is lost.

it boils down to whether you want the car to handle correctly at it's maximum or minimum height (keep in mind that maximum height must be high enough to clear any obstacles you may encounter).[/QUOTE]

that's an issue with every sort of height adjustable suspension, though -- your geometry and alignment is going to change if you change the ride height, no matter how you accomplish the change.

anyway, this y33 (with platinum's cups) has the same bottom mount binding issue that my car had with the insurances ([url]http://www.stancenation.com/2010/08/25/maliks-vip-infiniti-q45/[/url]), which is why it's so high. that's as low as it goes without going shorter springs. at some point, based on what i've seen (please correct me if i'm wrong), the shock body will stop adjusting lower because it's hitting the inside of the spindle. granted, i've never played with the bottom mount adjustment on my insurances to verify this, but that's what it looked like to me when i had the coilovers out of the car.

[QUOTE=cheez80;376474]that's an issue with every sort of height adjustable suspension, though -- your geometry and alignment is going to change if you change the ride height, no matter how you accomplish the change.[/QUOTE]
 
correct. what's left to decide is at what height in the adjustment range you want to have optimal geometry. for me this is a no brainer: the lowest point possible.
 
[QUOTE=cheez80;376474]anyway, this y33 (with platinum's cups) has the same bottom mount binding issue that my car had with the insurances ([URL]http://www.stancenation.com/2010/08/25/maliks-vip-infiniti-q45/[/URL]), which is why it's so high. that's as low as it goes without going shorter springs. at some point, based on what i've seen (please correct me if i'm wrong), the shock body will stop adjusting lower because it's hitting the inside of the spindle. granted, i've never played with the bottom mount adjustment on my insurances to verify this, but that's what it looked like to me when i had the coilovers out of the car.[/QUOTE]
 
most coilovers will bottom out in the lower bracket. there are a couple suspensions i have dealt with that the bottom face of the lower bracket is open. these have always been inverted monotubes.
 
in my experience, there have almost always (always when dealing with vip platform cars) been unsused threads between the lower bracket/locking nut and the lower spring perch/upper locking nut at minimum total length. the y33 seems to be an exception, and i have not worked on every platform.

so i think i kinda get whats going on witht his argument. i think OG thinks its kinda comparing apples to oranges in a way...the hydro system ocklass is working on is superior by far in adjustability, however, cups are superior when used as intended, vs the new system being used the same way as pneumatic cups. also, when it comes to proper geometry, the intended process of cups is the best way if you want adjustability. what it comes down to as a consumer is, for a vip application, am i concerned with proper geometry, or the largest range of adjustabillity. so far it seems like either system are the 2 best, assuming ocklasses system comes out as planned

[QUOTE=BAHC;376514]so i think i kinda get whats going on witht his argument. i think OG thinks its kinda comparing apples to oranges in a way...the hydro system ocklass is working on is superior by far in adjustability, however, cups are superior when used as intended, vs the new system being used the same way as pneumatic cups. also, when it comes to proper geometry, the intended process of cups is the best way if you want adjustability. what it comes down to as a consumer is, for a vip application, am i concerned with proper geometry, or the largest range of adjustabillity. so far it seems like either system are the 2 best, assuming ocklasses system comes out as planned[/QUOTE]
 
you have the idea. i think "far superior" is an overstatement, but at this point it doesn't matter. if a customer is interested in setting them up for adjustable ride heights i will happily forward them to ocklasse or another company. original garage and umbrella auto design prefer not to have our product misused.
 
if anyone has any more questions concerning proper function i encourage them to pm me or contact a manufacturer directly for assistance. this aspect of the topic has been covered well enough i think.

All i know is, out of all this debacle someone is riding around getting his shine on with the suspension you disagree on.. Cause right now it seems the best suspension is your ass while you type this.

It is like KA vs SR, or SR vs RB, or ls460 or a older Bentley.. People by what they buy cause it pertains to what they want, and what they think in "their" mind is right and justified as such.

you said "debacle"? for real?

[QUOTE=OG;377195]you said "debacle"? for real?[/QUOTE]

i say that in real life, but recently i've been saying "clusterfuck" more often. the chicks dig it

i say debacle in real life too. :dance:

Yeah I said it. I am 29 movin to 40.

I use it as well..actually I think I used it during our AIM discussion the other night.

haha thats cause its VIP speak. The type of speak that lands you at presidential parties and gets you Senate seats

[QUOTE=Kouki Monster;377330]haha thats cause its VIP speak. The type of speak that lands you at presidential parties and gets you Senate seats[/QUOTE]
sounds like something jay-z would say:biggthumpup:
...sorry for the offtopic, carry on =)

Its funny you say that cause I had Jay z on in the background. I can imitate his laugh perfectly too "hahaahaha " ~Jay Z

OG can you tell me if this has any truth?    I just recently had a conversation about cup systems with someone I know.   He heard that the bag in the cup rub against each other when deflated and driven on.   Therefore he was saying there has to be alittle bit of pressure at all times.   Is this true?

The only way to keep it from rubbing against each other is having the cup tight around the bag, so the bag rolls on the inside edge.

awesome thread. i wish i knew what OC is working on. need a test car? lol

[QUOTE=Blitz;377590]OG can you tell me if this has any truth? I just recently had a conversation about cup systems with someone I know. He heard that the bag in the cup rub against each other when deflated and driven on. Therefore he was saying there has to be alittle bit of pressure at all times. Is this true?[/QUOTE]
 
there is no bag inside of the cup.

[QUOTE=ZoO;377791]awesome thread. i wish i knew what OC is working on. need a test car? lol[/QUOTE]

I saw part of it and know about the rest. It is going very popular and will be a big step in the change away from lowrider hydraulics to 21st century hydraulics. When using cylinders instead cup style stuff, it will definitely will make the airbag crowd think twice.

[QUOTE=luciferi;377938]I saw part of it and know about the rest. It is going very popular and will be a big step in the change away from lowrider hydraulics to 21st century hydraulics. When using cylinders instead cup style stuff, it will definitely will make the airbag crowd think twice.[/QUOTE]

somthing like this?
[url]http://www.krz.cc/2010can_over.html[/url]

i have an idea but sadly its not universal enough. it can only be used with megan, bc racing , and any coilover setup where you lower by threading into the strut, not by lowering the spring.

[QUOTE=ZoO;378000]i have an idea but sadly its not universal enough. it can only be used with megan, bc racing , and any coilover setup where you lower by threading into the strut, not by lowering the spring.[/QUOTE]

what?

^ i have thought about lowering the collar all the way, and put a strut bag on, and a spring on top of that haha

[QUOTE=Blitz;378003]what?[/QUOTE]

turn the bottom mount tubes into a pneumatic or hydraulic  cylinder. either make universal inserts or completely new bottom tubes. then you can thread the upper strut half into.  so height control will be handled at the bottom of the coilover instead of on top of the spring. just an idea. not sure if it can actually work out. 

although it wouldnt be the greatest now that i think about it. since you are still very limited to the amount of travel you get maybe 3-4 inches. 

and im not sure if its something that you can traval on for long periods of time.

im thinking of using bolt on hydro from skipper japan for my toyota harrier as my current setup does not satisfy me yet. 
Has anyone here had any experience with skipper's hydro ?

Mainpage : [url]http://www.skipper.co.jp/index.php[/url]

Harrier with skipper's hydro : [url]http://www.skipper.co.jp/gallery/toyota/g011/index.php[/url]

I can tell that it is lower by 1-2 inches fr and rr compared to my current setup. But what i aim for is that i would be able to ride low with hydro which airsus could not deliver the outcome i expect

[QUOTE=annoez;378012]im thinking of using bolt on hydro from skipper japan for my toyota harrier as my current setup does not satisfy me yet. 
Has anyone here had any experience with skipper's hydro ?

Mainpage : [URL]http://www.skipper.co.jp/index.php[/URL]

Harrier with skipper's hydro : [URL]http://www.skipper.co.jp/gallery/toyota/g011/index.php[/URL]

I can tell that it is lower by 1-2 inches fr and rr compared to my current setup. But what i aim for is that i would be able to ride low with hydro which airsus could not deliver the outcome i expect[/QUOTE]

Hey,

Skipper is good stuff. Just extremely expensive. With the strong yen (I assume you're in Japan?), you might want to look to some US companies to save a lot of money...

....any company in mind....=)

Plenty of great ones :biggthumpup:

[QUOTE=OCKlasse;378715]Hey,

Skipper is good stuff. Just extremely expensive. With the strong yen (I assume you're in Japan?), you might want to look to some US companies to save a lot of money...[/QUOTE]

im in indonesia... glad if you could share some companies in US as comparison.. im looking for bolt on kit.. cheers

[QUOTE=OCKlasse;378772]Plenty of great ones :biggthumpup:[/QUOTE]Excellent unbiased answer.

[QUOTE=annoez;378841]im in indonesia... glad if you could share some companies in US as comparison.. im looking for bolt on kit.. cheers[/QUOTE]

Well, Hydroholics is currently the only US company that is not low-rider driven, meaning that their setups are designed more for guys like us than for guys looking to hop...

[url]www.hydroholics.net[/url]

Guys, im picking up an 04 ls430. any tips on air ride kits?

cups and coils. lol.
 
the ucf30 is pretty much open as far as setups, no constraints as far as what will work. read back through the couple of pages that were actually useful info and make a decision based on what suits your needs best. feel free to pm me if you need local help.

I am curious if anybody have experience with PG motoring cup kits? I am in process of aiming for cup + coil combo for my ls430.

pg has their own line of cups?

probably confusing pg with platinum vip. hit me up if you want another cup/coil option for your ucf30.

I love the idea of cups...but they are currently out of my budget. Seems like the perfect setup for going that like the ride quality and sitting low "static" if you will (although I hate the trendy honda/vw use of that word) while being able to clear driveways, parking lots, etc that have plagued low coilover users for years.

Would 10K/9K spring rate be too stiff for Y33? I want great handling out of the coilovers and I want long life from my shocks. Went a little higher on the rear because I will have a system...

^ no, id go stiffer

Really? Anyone with a Y33 have a suggestion on springrate?

I the homey Josh is running about 20 somethin on his Q

Good lord! Max out the box specs is like 8/6K. Would 20K even be comfortable? It is still a "luxury" car... I may just shoot for this spec and grab another set of springs if I am not satisfied with the handling. I was hoping to avoid that and really don't want to blow the shocks by going too low/ too soft.

I've seen in the VIPmags cats go up to past 30

I'm running 18/16 on my GS

last i remember josh tried something like 14k and didn't like it so he went back down, then he wanted to go back up. ride quality is about valving. it is possible to have a firm, controlled ride without it being "uncomfortable". of course "comfortable" varies from person to person.

Wrd my 18/16 doesn't feel too harsh. I really like them, if anything i could stand to go a little stiffer.

Nick- what brand are you running? I tried to search your threads before asking...

he's running bc custom spec extreme drop. ask me how i know.

Don't gotta ask him I'll tell you. Mike has / will do work on my car. I got my coils through Original Garage (OG). Good pricing great work.

We have been in contact. That's where I will be getting them from just trying to figure out springrate before we put the order in. 
Is your suspension all stock with the extreme drop coilovers?

yes it is. for now :)

My only concern is exceeding operating range of my other suspension components.
How much lower is the extreme low from the regular BR model?

Josh is currently running F-22kg & R-20kg
.................ask me how I know :innoutrofl2:

[QUOTE=ticket_target;404905]Good lord! Max out the box specs is like 8/6K. Would 20K even be comfortable? It is still a "luxury" car... I may just shoot for this spec and grab another set of springs if I am not satisfied with the handling. I was hoping to avoid that and really don't want to blow the shocks by going too low/ too soft.[/QUOTE]
 
 
im running 20/18 right now.  It's all in the valving, and my BCs with this rate is very comfortable..in fact, i wish i went with 26 up front.  You really want to figure out what you want to do BEFORE you pull the trigger, most dampers are good for +/- 2kg in spring rate meaning, if you order 20k springs, and want to change the spring rate, anything higher than 22k or lower than 18k will probably ride like shit and/or blow prematurely.

So the manufacturer will valve the strut to the springrate? 
I need a test ride! lol

I'm trying to figure out a spring rate too...

OG, are the extreme low BC same pricing?

i'm still at 12/8 on my y33 lulz

[QUOTE=ticket_target;405102]So the manufacturer will valve the strut to the springrate? 
I need a test ride! lol[/QUOTE]

If you want a ride, next time you're in Houston shoot me a text. (only if you're in sw Houston / alief / sugarland though lol)

[QUOTE=ticket_target;404986]How much lower is the extreme low from the regular BR model?[/QUOTE]
 
extreme drop kits are on a model by model basis. not all applications available.
 
[QUOTE=ticket_target;405102]So the manufacturer will valve the strut to the springrate?[/QUOTE]
 
correct.
 
[QUOTE=gh0st;405148]OG, are the extreme low BC same pricing?[/QUOTE]
 
yes.
 
my personal opinion is that you shouldn't go more aggressive than you need to. i haven't gone over 14k and have daily driven low static. but then there are variables. what's important to you? ride height, comfort, drivability, etc. honestly i'm still feeling it out. i try and determine the customer's needs and go from there. i take into account the weight of the vehicle, consider distribution, look at rates from a variety of companies, etc. and make a recommendation. so far everyone seems to have been happy, but i'd be lying if i said i was super scientific about it. to tell you the truth it's pretty hard to tell one from the other if it rides how it should.

[QUOTE=OG;405204]
 
my personal opinion is that you shouldn't go more aggressive than you need to. i haven't gone over 14k and have daily driven low static. but then there are variables. what's important to you? ride height, comfort, drivability, etc. honestly i'm still feeling it out. i try and determine the customer's needs and go from there. i take into account the weight of the vehicle, consider distribution, look at rates from a variety of companies, etc. and make a recommendation. so far everyone seems to have been happy, but i'd be lying if i said i was super scientific about it. to tell you the truth it's pretty hard to tell one from the other if it rides how it should.[/QUOTE]
 
 
agreed, it all depends on what youre trying to protect and how much your willing to give up to do so.  my front bumper is fiber glass, so i wanted to prevent that from hitting the ground at all costs, as well as my rims from bottoming out on my fender as my fitment is very tight, and while my fenders are 95% metal, its still an investment i made that i dont want to ruin because of too much travel.. honestly tho, my 20k are extremely comfy to drive on

This is especially for BAHC, or folks on similar setups.  Do you have an approximation of about how much suspension travel you have?  Anyone with air have similar information?

As many have said, we're all looking to minimize suspension travel for maximum low and minimal fender clearance.  I'm not seeing how on air we can get the necessary "spring rate" so to speak to keep travel minimized, that's the situation I'm trying to overcome currently anyway.

like i stated before. Bump stops. just get some custom soft ones.. hahaha

Just found a new company offering cup kits. Once I get my control arms made, I think I might order this. 

[url]http://www.stance-solutions.co.uk/1[/url]

Cool... I wanted to save for the Roberta Cup, but this looks great.
Next year I place my coil-overs on the car, maybe I'm gonna install this kit too. :biggthumpup:

[QUOTE=Mr.Doback;421034]Just found a new company offering cup kits. Once I get my control arms made, I think I might order this. 

[url]http://www.stance-solutions.co.uk/1[/url][/QUOTE]


hmmm i wonder how these measure up to the other cup kits. i mean quality wise....

Am i reading the site right?? they offer the cups as a basic kit and a offfer it with cups and compressor and tank?

basic kit .....305 british pounds = about  473 US dollars. I would say that is a bad ass deal. if the cup is built like the other good brands and not built like airforce lol

i'd be willing to bet you can't even buy the raw materials needed to make an umbrella kit for that.

[QUOTE=OG;424323]i'd be willing to bet you can't even buy the raw materials needed to make an umbrella kit for that.[/QUOTE]

Have no clue I was just asking  him he the guy said it made from 6061 t1 aluminum I don't know what umbrella is made from! I'm sure both are good products !!! But no reviews or many on there product yet !

umbrella is 8 series aluminum iirc. there are plenty of reviews/users of umbrella, just not in the vip world. expand your search.

[QUOTE=OG;424358]umbrella is 8 series aluminum iirc. there are plenty of reviews/users of umbrella, just not in the vip world. expand your search.[/QUOTE]

Havnt searched umbrella bc I know a lot of people already use them! And know they have reviews that are good! I was just curious over this new brand! Nothing wrong with trying to find info on a new brand or get a comparison. But if there aint many people buying or reviewing on something there is a reason for . But really material wise , I mean does that affect the functionality of the cup itself? I mean I know one material might be "more" solid then the other but what makes the other material not good? They both do the same thing. 

The only plus I see to the other company is that they sell a kit which is only the cups!

[QUOTE=xxjustimajinxx;424365] But really material wise , I mean does that affect the functionality of the cup itself? I mean I know one material might be "more" solid then the other but what makes the other material not good? They both do the same thing. ![/QUOTE]

dont you work in QC? LAWD DONT EVER LET ME GET SOMETHING FROM WHERE YOU WORK :pat:

6061 is an indusrty standard, noting wrong with it at all. For the record, 8 series doesn't exist so I was wrong but I know that Umbrella uses a higher grade than others.
 
I find it humorous when people are concerned with buying cups alone. Most of these people have multiple large compressors, big tanks, fancy gauges, autoleveling, etc.; which is why they want to keep it. What they don't realize is that all of that stuff is overkill for a cup setup and is worth more on the used market than it is installed.
 
As far as the $500 cups... I'm always skeptical when something comes priced significantly less than the competitors. I'm not saying that they will definitely come up short, but I gaurentee these people aren't working for free. R&D, materials, machine time, assembly, etc. all cost money. Do you think it's more llikely that this company is shorting themselves on profit or in other areas?

I agree. It also might be a factor that they are in the UK though. Maybe that "skews" the cost of labor and/or materials when compared to the US or Japan. But hey who knows. Just a thought. IMO only one way to find out. Gotta buy em and try em. Who's feelin lucky??? Hehehehehe

Looks like Anup is. Only problem is when he trys s**t out I end up having to redo it over and over. 4th times a charm?

thats cause he will go to shop A to get it done, and then have shop B change some stuff up, then get shop C to clean up what shops A and B did only to take it to shop D to change it all out lol.

damn I got people making my decisions for me lol I didn't say I was going to buy anything yet but its ok I'll put up with the heat mainly due to the fact I did not listen in the beginning its ok! That my fault.I m just going to rock my coils and stockies  for  while I'm just tryin rid everything I have at the moment. But I would really feel more comfortable about the umbrella anyways..

doesn't hurt to ask questions on a new company does it? But once everything is sold I will be coming to mike for umbrella! I feel its more reliable just because I trust him in what brands he chooses to carry. Obviously he will not steer anyone in the wrong direction!

nick, I am in qc but I don't deal with a lot of aluminum products on our equipment mostly 316 ss  or carbon steel! So I don't see a lot of al parts

When your R&D consists of copying other individuals' designs, there is little R&D. Not saying that's necessarily what these guys in the UK are doing, but being a business-school grad, that's the most logical reason I can come up with.

only 50mm lift?

50mm lift is enough when you consider you lift from ride height. even if you have the frame 1" off the ground 3" of ground clearance will get you just about anywhere.

the story behind those cups I found is that he is/was a college student and the cups were his design project. 

He offered on vwvortex for vw people and had a few sales, but no one on vortex uses cups, only air struts nowadays....so no one really had any reviews. 

:shrug:   [B] [I] I am open to donations to order and give a review.[/I] [/B] :giggity:

Just got BC's with 14/14 on my car and they are way too soft. Car's weight is 3850lbs with 50/50 weight distribution.
I drove Y33 on 22/20 and it drove amazing for what it is. I would have never thought that his rates were that high.

:innoutrofl2:

Hey guys,

I was directed to this thread by Anup on FaceBook. He messaged me inquiring about the Stance Solution Static+ cup kit. I want to start out saying I am not affiliated with the company at all - but like many of you I was looking for a raise and lower my car. After deciding against airbags, I had known about cup kits forever, but wasn't about to pay $3000-6000 for a set. I randomly ran across Stance Solutions.

Being that I am one of the first in the US to own this kit and have began publicly announcing it i have received a lot of e-mails and messages about the specifics.... I'll give you a run down -- GET COMFY.

From day one, Adam, was very helpful and straight forward. He would answer e-mails each day and offer as much as he could. When I ran into issues (see below) he replied, "Wish I was there to help you troubleshoot this further". He went out of his way sending me diagrams, computerized models and "blue prints" to his cups - down to dimensions and tolerances (actual structural figures and measurements).

The biggest downfall I found was finding coils to fit these. I looked into Umbrella and they told me I would need to send my coils in to have the cups fitted. I now see why. The Static+ cups require a 20mm shaft. On Japanese cars most coils have 12.5mm shafts (BC, HKS), while some were 15mm (Stance Coils) and others even being 8mm in diameter (your cheaper coils such as Godspeed, Topspeed, Megan). Function and Form were the only coils I found in the US to accomodate the cup kit. This is why I was sent such detailed plannings of the Static+ cups - I thought I was going to need to machine them and have custom seals made. This is also why Umbrella wanted my coils. They would insert the correct seal for my coilover in house and send it back to me. Stance Solutions is now working on fixing this due to my experience. They will be coming out with different diameter seals already installed on the cups depending on popular sized coils in the US. Apparently, in the UK a lot of coilovers already have 20mm inner shaft diameters (or at least that's how the Germans are making them as most of these kits have only been installed on VW's in the UK). At any rate.... moving along.

When I received the cups everything was packaged very nicely. Professionally shipped for sure. The cups themselves looked flawless. They are very solid and weigh quite a bit. Fake wheels weigh a lot - doesn't mean they are quality. But judging from what I saw in the blue prints and stress tests these things are a quality piece. EVERYTHING you need is included in the "delux" kit from airline to PTFE spray lubricant, all air line fittings, solenoids, instructions, pictures, etc. This is what I decided to go with so it could be "plug and play".

It wasn't. More issues.

The compressor that came with the kit kept seizing up. We couldn't figure out why. I ended up taking the compressor apart and found that a bolt had come loose and fallen into the pump. This was a quick fix at Lowes and then it worked smoothly. It's very hard to explain how this happened, but very easy to understand once the unit is infront of you and apart. A threaded bolt with a nut on the end was not long enough. When Stance Solutions tested the compressor before they sent it it was just enough use to cause the nut to fall off. We bought a longer bolt at Lowes and then put everything back together. The compressor has never had another issue. I e-mailed Adam about this with pictures and he said he would be making adjustments to the remaining compressors before sending them out so nothing like this would happen again.

The next issue we kept running into was the fuse popping that was inline going to the compressor. It was drawing more than 50amps. I went to every O'Reillys, Pepboys, Autozone and Wal Mart in my town and could not find a small 50amp fuse like was used in the kit. I could found 40's and 60's in the that size...but not one 50. It was blowing 50's anyway. So I ended up going by an audio shop and buying a 60amp fuse - the large kind. The draw was 54amps. I have never blown the 60amp fuse. I also e-mailed this information to Adam at Stance Solutions telling him, "You'd think there was still some hostility over The Party we threw." I'm not sure if he is going to fix this or not, so just be aware you may need to splice in a new fuse box.

Related to the above, I think that my car needs more amperage due to it's weight. I would think you guys would have the same issue also having mostly 4-door cars. Also related, the pressure gauge is cheap, but you can get a nice Zenith air, digital gauge, for <$100. I accidentally broke broke it because we applied 185psi of shop air to the system during a test and the gauge only goes to 120psi... ooops :) The cups are rated up to 220psi I believe. So as long as we kept it under 200psi I knew they would be OK. We applied 185psi 4 or 5 times BEFORE the cups were even lubricated and I have had no issue with them.

I have also driven with air applied to the cups. Something that other cup kit makers advise against and others say, "not for long periods". I do this for about a 1/4 mile stretch leaving my apartment and coming back due to dips, bumps and a speed bump - no since in letting the air out and then reapplying it 4 times (dip on street, bump at gate entrance, speed bump and my garage). They ride just fine with air in them (of course the ride quality stiffens A LOT due to changing preload of the coils). I haven't tried air in them at high speeds. I have confidence that these would do just fine for a short stretch of relatively smooth highway driving. 

These cups are made a lot like the cylinder in your car. There is an outter sleeve, an inner piston with the coilover spring sitting up into it, a ring to seal the air inside the chamber and seals around the coilover shaft running through the cup. The only mechanical issue I see from riding with these inflated is blowing air around the seals. They are rubber, fit very snug, but with 120psi average pressing against them and then the weight of the car over a large bump at high speeds would create - I don't even know how much more pressure. Would it ruin the seal? I guess if you popped it off hard enough and ripped it or it slipped out of place... Again, no cup kit manufacturer will tell you to ride with air in your cups all the time; at least not the companies I talked to.
-- Platinum VIP said "Yes, for short periods".
-- Umbrella said, "It is not recommended to have air in the cups while driving".
-- Air Force did not answer the question.
-- Roberuta Japan had a broken response.

All in all, I would order these cups again in a heart beat. Tech support was great. Adam said the cups had been on his friends cars for about 2 years with NO issues.

If anyone has any questions I will try to respond as quick as possible.

[url]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NdbFdSbIuvM[/url]

[IMG]http://i278.photobucket.com/albums/kk118/HomieG35_photos/4b84972a.jpg[/IMG]

[IMG]http://i278.photobucket.com/albums/kk118/HomieG35_photos/a3e6ff5f.jpg[/IMG]


[IMG]http://i278.photobucket.com/albums/kk118/HomieG35_photos/The%20G/IMG_0033.jpg[/IMG]

[IMG]http://i278.photobucket.com/albums/kk118/HomieG35_photos/The%20G/IMG_0036.jpg[/IMG]

uh... too long for me to read=)  I'll have my buddy in the market for cup kits read this instead.  Lol.

Is it the video or the cup just airs up pretty slow?

looks like it feeds directly from the compressor vs. having a tank. way slower than both umbrella and roberuta.

i think he said on another forum that he was running straight compressor, and was looking to add a tank eventually.

ok so ive finally decided to get some kinda air suspension and im leaning towards bags on coils but my only concern is with this set up can i ride low lets say 2" off the ground without bouncing and scraping all over the place?? The guy that is selling me the system is reassuring me that i can with the proper setup...some accumulators or whatever he said but i wanna get an unbiased opinion. Any help would be appreciated

what do you guys think about this one [url]http://www.ebay.com/itm/230527899764?ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1423.l2649#ht_2101wt_1163[/url]
add a digital management system like dakota or accuair and i should be set? Or do i need something else?

Bags on coils is preferred since you can lower your ride height with the coils & still have a good amount of air on the bags to avoid being too bouncy. 
 
As for Ksport, mixed reviews depending on application. Somebody with a GS2 on this forum & an F50 owner likes them. My friend with an XB didn't.
 
Check out [URL="http://airrex-usa.com/products.html"]AirRex[/URL] as well.

[QUOTE=Matkg;440323]Bags on coils is preferred since you can lower your ride height with the coils & still have a good amount of air on the bags to avoid being too bouncy. 
 
As for Ksport, mixed reviews depending on application. Somebody with a GS2 on this forum & an F50 owner likes them. My friend with an XB didn't.
 
Check out [URL="http://airrex-usa.com/products.html"]AirRex[/URL] as well.[/QUOTE]
 
the point of the bag over the coilover is not to reduce 'bouncy', its to allow the vehicle to rise over obstacles. even cheap coilovers with proper travel, springrate, and installation will not 'bouncy'.
 
coilovers>bags! but not really just wanting to start some shit!

Lol.  Should have clarified.  My comment was in comparison to an all bag, no coil setup (since he seems decided on going air).  On an all bag/strut setup, bag needs to be deflated a lot to have the drive height he wants.  Less air = more harsh or "bouncy".

[QUOTE=Matkg;440335]Lol. Should have clarified. My comment was in comparison to an all bag, no coil setup (since he seems decided on going air). On an all bag/strut setup, bag needs to be deflated a lot to have the drive height he wants. Less air = more harsh or "bouncy".[/QUOTE]
 
in that case i agree 1000%! that is the very reason i went with coilovers!! airrunner drove like shit at no where near as low as i drive now 
 
in my case.... function>form :innoutrofl2:

[QUOTE=CubanGS;440343]in that case i agree 1000%! that is the very reason i went with coilovers!! airrunner drove like shit at no where near as low as i drive now 
 
in my case.... function>form :innoutrofl2:[/QUOTE]
 
Man! Mr. Oni brought out the "function>form" card. I don't know if you qualify=)
 
I do agree that if you plan on driving dumped, coils or coils/bags or cups is the way to go. If I had the budget I would have gone OTG instead of AR.

bags can be set up to drive low but the lower you set it up for the less lift you will get. kind of negates the pros of a bag seup imo and makes other options even more appealing. the only time i really recommend bags is when someone wants a conservative ride height, needs lift, and wants to be able to park low. there's a million ways to skin a cat but that doesn't mean they're all equal.

So it is possible to ride low as in 2" off the ground with bags over coils? Right now im debating between the platinum vip cup kit which is $2500 for everything or a a bag over coil set up with dakota digital system that will run about $3500 if thats the case.

[QUOTE=OG;440352]bags can be set up to drive low but the lower you set it up for the less lift you will get. kind of negates the pros of a bag seup imo and makes other options even more appealing. the only time i really recommend bags is when someone wants a conservative ride height, needs lift, and wants to be able to park low. there's a million ways to skin a cat but that doesn't mean they're all equal.[/QUOTE]

probably the nicest thing you ever said! WELL WRITTEN!

[QUOTE=MashinA;440355]So it is possible to ride low as in 2" off the ground with bags over coils? Right now im debating between the platinum vip cup kit which is $2500 for everything or a a bag over coil set up with dakota digital system that will run about $3500 if thats the case.[/QUOTE]
 
 
it IS possible with the right set up, but what hes saying is that by the time you purchase a set up capable of doing so, you've gone against the whole purpose of bags anyways.

well to me the whole purpose of bags isnt to be able to raise the car 5"...im not going offroading...the whole purpose would be to be able to pancake it when parked, be able to drive it with an aggressive height and be able to get over speed bumps and into parking lots.
I mean a cup kit will essentially do the same thing but it wont let me park it low. 
I think thats the just of it unless im misunderstanding something.

In my case, having the peace of mind to be able to lower and raise my car in the matter of seconds but still be able to roll as low if not lower and more comfortable as those w/ coil-overs or "Static" makes all the difference to me.
Can't tell you how many times on a daily basis I've been glad that I have air to get me out of certain situations. Definetly a nice luxury to have.
 
Unless your trying to go after the lowest or one of the lowest cars in your platform or scene, who really cares though :shrug:
 
 
EDIT- I own air and still refuse to go over speed bumps or go in areas that I have to raise the car to get into. I usually jus go around the speed bumps or avoid it all together. It's jus nice to have just incase you get stuck or need to. Being able to raise up at a instant has also saved me from dozen of tickets hahahahaha

[QUOTE=PANCAKES!;440464]In my case, having the peace of mind to be able to lower and raise my car in the matter of seconds but still be able to roll as low if not lower and more comfortable as those w/ coil-overs or "Static" makes all the difference to me.
Can't tell you how many times on a daily basis I've been glad that I have air to get me out of certain situations. Definetly a nice luxury to have.
 
Unless your trying to go after the lowest or one of the lowest cars in your platform or scene, who really cares though :shrug:
 
 
EDIT- I own air and still refuse to go over speed bumps or go in areas that I have to raise the car to get into. I usually jus go around the speed bumps or avoid it all together. It's jus nice to have just incase you get stuck or need to. Being able to raise up at a instant has also saved me from dozen of tickets hahahahaha[/QUOTE]
 
^What he said.
 
No more cold sweats trying to figure out if I can make it or not.  Lol.  I drove my car to vegas a few weeks ago & all I needed was to raise it up a little bit & not worry.
 
@pancakes - did you get the otg installed yet?

[QUOTE=MashinA;440463]well to me the whole purpose of bags isnt to be able to raise the car 5"...im not going offroading...the whole purpose would be to be able to pancake it when parked, be able to drive it with an aggressive height and be able to get over speed bumps and into parking lots.
I mean a cup kit will essentially do the same thing but it wont let me park it low. 
I think thats the just of it unless im misunderstanding something.[/QUOTE]
 
 
depending on how low you want to drive, youre going to need air in the bag...the more air the stiffer the ride...that being said...the more air you drive with, the less air available for lift...so you can park low, ride intermediate, and lift it barely above drive height and still not get over speed bumps lol.

[QUOTE=Matkg;440472]
@pancakes - did you get the otg installed yet?[/QUOTE]
 
Not yet, still waiting to get my oil pan and a few other things worked out but I have it
 
[QUOTE=BAHC;440475]depending on how low you want to drive, youre going to need air in the bag...the more air the stiffer the ride...that being said...the more air you drive with, the less air available for lift...so you can park low, ride intermediate, and lift it barely above drive height and still not get over speed bumps lol.[/QUOTE]
 
Yea, that's about right. Also too much air in a bag gives the car a floating spongie ride which isn't right but it is possible to get the right combination at be able to ride as low as/or lower than everybody else, park even lower and still have lift to get over minor obstacles jus like the use of cup kits

Well i went ahead and pulled the trigger on the cup kit... cheaper and less complicated

[QUOTE=MashinA;440508]Well i went ahead and pulled the trigger on the cup kit... cheaper and less complicated[/QUOTE]

grats!!!!!!!!!

[QUOTE=MashinA;440508]Well i went ahead and pulled the trigger on the cup kit... cheaper and less complicated[/QUOTE]

Nice!!! I love my set up. You'll love yours. 
So convenient!

I am going with Coilovers with Phantom Suspension.

Recovered coils from my (sold) w210 for the w124 E420.
R129 4matic SL strut mounts - allows +1" upward strut travel.
#1 spring pads all 4 corners for abit more low.
Awaiting Bilstei Sport shocks =]

So if I'm running a bag+shock set up will I be able to ride at say a 2-3" ride height? Is there anyway to be running that low on a bag+shock set up?

going with Airrex struts here. heard they are really stiff which i like

[QUOTE=VIPanda;453820]So if I'm running a bag+shock set up will I be able to ride at say a 2-3" ride height? Is there anyway to be running that low on a bag+shock set up?[/QUOTE]

I run at that ride height with my Ksport bag setup.

Just one thing I have to add to this thread. 
Ride 'quality' is mostly determined by tire profile. If you're going from a 60-70 OEM series tire to a 30-35 series tire, THAT will be the biggest determining factor in ride 'quality'.
Bags and coilovers ride more or less the same. Sure, when you get into extreme spring rates (read: might as well replace spring with 2"x4") on a coilover sure that will have a great effect on ride 'quality'. On the opposite end if you set your struts to full soft and ride with very little pressure in your bags it's gonna bounce like a bouncy castle.
I keep hearing questions about 'how does it ride'? Its a question noone can answer but you. You gotta try different things and see what suits you best because the differences can be minimal to non-existent.

I'm not sure if it's been covered but I'm not reading through 13 pages to find out. If it has please delete my post and as you were.

Well when i get my LS I was thinking about starting off with a set of Tanabe drop springs. I plan on possibly driving it daily and want to try and keep as nice of ride quality as I can.

so i have the phantom cup kit from platinum vip on my bc coils and every meet i go to here in japan all i hear is "how come it doesn't go lower", this shiz is really getting annoying to me cuz i keep tyring to explain that its coilovers with the ability to raise the car over obsticles but all i get is blank stares in response from japanese people.  i'm starting to think i'm like the first person in japan to have a cup kit on a vip platform/build.  there are two types of setups from what i've seen in japan; those that ride slammed on coilovers and those that have air and park with frame just about touching the ground.

i seem to be some weird hybrid that shouldn't exist.  my lowest setting of my coils is drivable in a straight line (and almost 100% even/flat front to back) but i usually raise the front about 1" when i drive.   i may stop showing/telling them i have air cup kit since the next question is always so why aren't you lower.  but japanese people seem to 90% of the time ask you what susp you are running as soon as they check out the car, so i tell them, air cup kit, then the flurry of questions and defensive answers follow.

now i'm starting to question my setup the more i read about coil + UAS or coil + air bag setup.

what are the pro's that i have over a coil (BC) + UAS setup or coil (BC) + bag setup???  i was original led to believe that i could only maintain that coilover drive feel/performance with a coil + cup kit setup, now i'm starting to read that this may not be true...?

they have cups in japan, there's a top secret/roberuta kit thats like 6-7k or something like that. i'm assuming that it's so expensive it's not a common sight.

you can maintain a stiff(ish) suspension with bags but you sacrifice lift because you're rolling with fully inflated bags. you'd ride at your near highest setting and slam it while parking, which in my opinion negates the whole point of an adjustable suspension. i can't speak directly on japanese car culture, but what i've been led to believe is most of them are static. they're used to riding low all the time. i've seen your pictures, and while your car looks really good, you're not really all that low. i guess they think that since you're relatively high your adjustable suspension would be able to go lower.

yes i would say that the majority of japanese cars are static and slammed.  but i've also noticed that they sacrifice aggressive offsets in order to ride completely slammed.  this past sat night there were two idelticle cars to mines that i saw and both rode about 1" lower, but both had weaker offsets.  so i guess i need to do some more small modifications in order to go lower and keep the offsets i do have.

but how much travel do these setups you just described likely have ^ ^ ^?  my best case setup/scenario would be to have about 5 inches of total travel and drive at about 3" of 5" (where 3" is the lowest it can safely drive and turn without rubbing) (saving 2" for obsticles or for a full car of passengers) and the ability to drop it about 3" when i park.  right now i'm essentially driving with 3" of travel and driving at aboutu 1" up (saving 2" for obsticles and a full car of passengers) then the ability to drop it about an inch when parked...  just feels a little weak when i pull up and air out the car only goes down an inch  ;)...

I have BC coils on my Y33 that I got from OG (thanks btw). I forgot the specs but I do have Swift springs, with the dampening set dead in the middle. I love the ride quality of my coilovers and how low they are maxed out. That being said the low all the time has created some issues for me. Mainly because my car is much lower and much much bigger than the last car  I drove, and its a bit difficult to get used to driving an actually low car in a fairly hilly part of Florida. I do wish I could afford/had bags mainly for adjustability for going over the speed bumps, potholes, and general road hazards. That being said I've never ridden in or drove a car with bags so I have no clue what the difference in ride quality is, but I'd be surprised if they'd feel better than my current setup.

Read my last post.

I prefer coilovers I think with the proper spring rate and the supporting suspension mods these are the best. I like the look of a bagged out parking lot pimping vehical, but the static coilover sedan cruising down the street looks so  much better.

[QUOTE=sojah;488589]yes i would say that the majority of japanese cars are static and slammed.  but i've also noticed that they sacrifice aggressive offsets in order to ride completely slammed.  this past sat night there were two idelticle cars to mines that i saw and both rode about 1" lower, but both had weaker offsets.  so i guess i need to do some more small modifications in order to go lower and keep the offsets i do have.

but how much travel do these setups you just described likely have ^ ^ ^?  my best case setup/scenario would be to have about 5 inches of total travel and drive at about 3" of 5" (where 3" is the lowest it can safely drive and turn without rubbing) (saving 2" for obsticles or for a full car of passengers) and the ability to drop it about 3" when i park.  right now i'm essentially driving with 3" of travel and driving at aboutu 1" up (saving 2" for obsticles and a full car of passengers) then the ability to drop it about an inch when parked...  just feels a little weak when i pull up and air out the car only goes down an inch  ;)...[/QUOTE]

the roberuta/top secret kit is designed to ride aired out and only used to lift over obstacles. as far as how i would use a cup kit, i wouldn't ride with it inflated at all. i would just ride low and use it to lift over obstacles.

this is essentiall what i am doing now, riding aired out cept for about 1/2" of air in front when its just me in the car.

my question now is:
--------
but how much travel do these setups you just described likely have ^ ^ ^?  my best case setup/scenario would be to have about 5 inches of total travel and drive at about 3" of 5" (where 3" is the lowest it can safely drive and turn without rubbing) (saving 2" for obsticles or for a full car of passengers) and the ability to drop it about 3" when i park

Wll with my setup (D2 air 4-way) I can get some like 16cm's of lift, but I've set it up so that I should be able drive it (straight line creeping, oni camber, slightly tucking) @40-50psi w/ ~1" ground clearance, and full maneuverability <40mph cruising (flush, heavy camber) @ 60-70psi w/ ~2" clearance. Highway pulls / racing / spirited driving should require around 80-100psi (1-2 finger gap) and something between 2,5-4" clearance. I've tweaked my setups a lot since it last saw any action (-09) so this is only my hypothesis based on my experiences with my old setup (D2 air 2-way). But it was fun doing burnouts when leaving intersections nearly deflated with all that natural camber and only 300hp, can't wait to do the same with the 21's and >15 neg degrees with the lsd and turbo upgrades =)

Oh and total lift now is set so that my max clearance is ~4,5"@front and ~5"@rear when  inflated over 140psi. So I sacrificed nearly 2 inches when setting em up so that I can creep slammed. Fully deflated I have ~0,5" of ground clearance.

so a solid coilover feeling is what like 100-120 psi or something ^ ^ ^  ?  thanks,

sounds like your setup would have accomplished everything i was looking for, btw what price range if you don't mind my asking is something like that gonna run?  is it compatible with BC racing coilovers?  thanks juzzo.

Well it's the D2 Air Suspension Deluxe kit (2300€ back in 08/09), but I've added an extra compressor(150€), valves(100€) for FBSS and Dakota Digital gauge kit(300€) to make it more complete. But it's basically just D2 shocks + bags whose manufacturer I can't remember, the newer ones(D2 and KSports) are made by AirTech... I like it, and way back when I knew even less it was the easiest solution. Nowadays with the existing know-how (yeah right) I would piece together my own kit from scratch. Just need to compare a lot of bag options, to get the right amount of max lift with the best low ride characteristic. UAS has proven to work pretty good, but there are plenty of options.

How does a person obtain coilovers for a car that has ZERO aftermarket support? The car is not VIP. It's a 05 Cadillac STS. I figured asking in here would be better than starting a new thread, if I dont have to start one. I have searched on the internet and all they have available is lowering springs. Now, the Cadillac CTS has more support with everything from, engine, suspension and body kits. Would it be easier to convert coilovers from a CTS to make it fit an STS? Maybe some insight will help, since I dont know much about suspension products. If not, then I could try calling performance shops around Tacoma, WA, that know about suspension and see what they have to say. 

This is me thinking out loud...whats the reason for any company not making coilovers for all cars?

because the market does not support the cost of r&d. at least one person has used cts coils on an sts using a custom adapter.

when does a company decide that its worth the money to do R&D and how much does it cost?

[QUOTE=IS3_FTW;492636]when does a company decide that its worth the money to do R&D and how much does it cost?[/QUOTE]

i know some companies will r&d if you can set up a group buy and gather deposits. you will probably have to come up out of pocket to help cover expenses and time + the time the car has to be down.

^^^^i wont be able to cough up the money, but I am willing to have my car down for it

someone mentioned how woudl you setup damping on a constantly variable spring (air bag). I was thinking make a microcrontoller which controls stepper motors on your adjustable dampers which is directly controlled by the pressure in your bags. 
I have d2 bag/strut in my ls400, d2 said they are working on motor adjsuters to place ontop of the stut for on the fly adjsutability, but I would like to program it to be automatic with airpressure which is your effective spring rate.

Are there any reviews/ratings on product MAX coil overs for the Y33 any fit up issues ride quality any help would be appreciated.

Im running d2racing air struts matched to Airrex digital management

Possibly a stupid question but I priced out e-level management package compressor, tank, fittings  and d2 air struts. Then I priced out Airrex for my car and Airrex was about $1000 more expensive I am wondering why? 

Car is a 2006 Lexus is350 
Thanks for any help learning about air suspension

Different gear... Going by the AirRex reps word the struts and bags "should" be different than D2's. Also when you buy a whole package you might install it faster with out as much pondering as a pieced out kit = easier for beginners, hence the added price.