Shortened knuckle for GS/Aristo. Who,Why,What and How.

I think I know the why, just want to hear from some experienced VIP folks on the subject. 

So at this point my car is low enough where the upper control arm is almost coming through the hole I cut in the shock tower. Needless to say the ball-joint is at such an extreme angle when driving it just cant be good.

The car in question is a 2GS on coil-overs but I guess this could apply to other cars as well. 

First question is why would you want to shorten the knuckle on your slammed car? 

What are the benefits/drawbacks of doing so?

Who offers this type of service?

What kind of equipment is used?
Seems like a mig welder wont cut it for this type of job.

What is the steering knuckle made out of?
cast iron????

How does this affect the geometry of the front suspension?

After the knuckle is shortened are there any "must have" items to get the full benefits? 

Thats all I got for now. Lets see where this goes.

if i'm not mistaken, cubanGS had this done to his 1GS. PBM did the work, iirc

I just did this on my Q45 different car, same concept:

25mm shorter than stock:

[img]http://www.dressupbolts.com/wp-content/gallery/q45-build/g50-107.jpg[/img]


[QUOTE=~~sperm~bomb~~;471019]

First question is why would you want to shorten the knuckle on your slammed car? 

What are the benefits/drawbacks of doing so?[/QUOTE]

You shorten it so you can DRIVE lower. The benefit is that you can drive lower. The drawback is that if is isn't done correctly it could potentially break and that would suck. Although I think most people get overly cautious here... but whatever it is what it is. 

[QUOTE=~~sperm~bomb~~;471019]
Who offers this type of service?

What kind of equipment is used?
Seems like a mig welder wont cut it for this type of job.

What is the steering knuckle made out of?
cast iron????[/QUOTE]

Any competent welder/machinist should be able to handle it. 

A Mig would work just fine. It is Cast but I can't recall if the 161 is Aluminum or Iron. 

 
[QUOTE=~~sperm~bomb~~;471019]
How does this affect the geometry of the front suspension?[/QUOTE]

It doesn't really matter what it does to the suspension geometry, because your geometry is so fucked if you really need this mod anyway. Any difference it made would be unnoticeable. 


[QUOTE=~~sperm~bomb~~;471019]
After the knuckle is shortened are there any "must have" items to get the full benefits? 
[/QUOTE]

Yea, you must drive lower.

I have had this done to my car by Nate at Dreamakers custom. Doing this eliminated the upper control arm banging Issue, and it also puts things in better alignment for driving slammed. Better driving feel and less wear on that upper arm. If you do a straight 20-30 mm cut on the knuckle, you will REMOVE all natural camber out of your suspension. This effects wheel fitment drastically. I am on a 6 inch drop and I have + 1 degree camber. There is a way to fix this, but you need to force camber into the suspension by adjusting the cut and weld on your knuckle,or shortening your upper arm. If you have a RCA on your car, It is imiperative that you chop your knuckle because if you ride low(like at least 5 inch drop) your upper arm will be even closer to the shock tower. Also you will have then effectively made a dropped knuckle. Like a truck application

I have modified the UCA-knuckle connection, cut/welded...2 years ago, no problem. Going to modify it soon and shorten the knuckle.
If you are afraid it can brake, just add support plate on the sides of the knuckle and it will be stronger that oem. Just find a good welder, not some junky !

The benefit of the shortening is to ride super low without bottoming the UCA. Another fact: the lower you go, the stiffer you need to make your suspension.

[QUOTE=~~sperm~bomb~~;471019]First question is why would you want to shorten the knuckle on your slammed car?[/QUOTE]

the only reason that applies to us is to avoid uca contact.

[QUOTE]What are the benefits/drawbacks of doing so?[/QUOTE]

benefit: avoid uca contact

drawback: possible failure, unpredictable dynamic geometry

[QUOTE]Who offers this type of service?[/QUOTE]

everyone from pro race shops to your neighborhood hack.

[QUOTE]What kind of equipment is used?[/QUOTE]

something to cut, something to grind, something to weld.

[QUOTE]What is the steering knuckle made out of?[/QUOTE]

varies from car to car. 2gs is cast steel/iron (depending on carbon content).

[QUOTE]How does this affect the geometry of the front suspension?[/QUOTE]

static camber changes will vary by ride height. unpredictable changes in dynamic geometry unless you know how to measure/calculate.

[QUOTE]After the knuckle is shortened are there any "must have" items to get the full benefits? [/QUOTE]

if you run an rca of equal thickness to the chop then you create a drop spindle which should retain the same dynamic geometry as unmodified, however you will negate the benefit of the chop unless compared to a suspension already equipped with rca.

there are uca with low profile bj that accomplish the same thing. but who wants to spend all that money when you can hack some shit up and spend the change on some cosmetic mods? i mean cars are for looking at, not driving.

[QUOTE=OG;471060]the only reason that applies to us is to avoid uca contact.



benefit: avoid uca contact

drawback: possible failure, unpredictable dynamic geometry



everyone from pro race shops to your neighborhood hack.



something to cut, something to grind, something to weld.



varies from car to car. 2gs is cast steel/iron (depending on carbon content).



static camber changes will vary by ride height. unpredictable changes in dynamic geometry unless you know how to measure/calculate.



if you run an rca of equal thickness to the chop then you create a drop spindle which should retain the same dynamic geometry as unmodified, however you will negate the benefit of the chop unless compared to a suspension already equipped with rca.

there are uca with low profile bj that accomplish the same thing. but who wants to spend all that money when you can hack some shit up and spend the change on some cosmetic mods? i mean cars are for looking at, not driving.[/QUOTE]



I very seriously doubt anyone who has done this mod in Japan or the US has done any measurements to ensure "correct" suspension geometry. The bottom line is the car is going to be so low to need this mod that any hope of having a correct suspension geometry is well out the window. Even if you were to get it as good as it could be your roll center would still be 3" under the pavement. So what exactly are you trying to say? There is no "correct" way to do this, because you are extending the motion of the suspension past where it was designed to be. Not to mention the wheels that are being run are 99% of the time going to fuck the scrub radius too. So I'm really confused why this argument is even being made? 

Also a RCA alone combined with this mod does create a drop spindle, the sway bar mount, and the tie rod mount would still both be fucked, and you will only gain an inch with a RCA which will still put your LCA at a crazy angle. Because if you run a RCA the same thickness as the chop you still need to make up the OTHER 3" from lowering the car enough to need a chopped spindle in the first place. 

Unless you completely re-engineer the front suspension there is no correct way to accomplish this "correctly". This is being done as a necessity to drive lower not for any performance gain.

no argument here, just stating facts. the more you know...

I can tell you from personal DRIVING experience that the car drives a LOT better. Also, with a 4 inch drop, my upper arms are practically level. The front of my car is being "re-engeneered over the winter anyway. My front wheels are pushed forward a bit after my FUCA's were custom fabbed. 
"correct" would be stock geometry which I Dont and never want to have.
geometry that allows me to drive stupid low and cambered and still whip hard as shit like i do daily is what is "correct" to me

everyone [I]says[/I] their car drives great, but what's the baseline? sounds more like justification than actual useful information. you aint gotta prove shit to me homie. you like it, i love it.

[QUOTE=OG;471071]everyone [I]says[/I] their car drives great, but what's the baseline? sounds more like justification than actual useful information. you aint gotta prove shit to me homie. you like it, i love it.[/QUOTE]

You are correct. There is no baseline to measure how good a car drives/rides. Even OEM's can't figure that out, which is why there is always a constant struggle between a luxurious ride and a racecar like handling. 

That being said, most of those here are not looking to achieve either of these two extremes. Instead i would assume we are building a car that we consider "beautiful" or dope..lol

So ride quality and handling (even suspension geometry) always takes a back seat. Even with cars that are not overly lowered, the oem designed suspension geometry is no longer correct. It becomes even worse once the car is lowered to the point of needing to modify the spindle or third arm. RCA's are just a bandaid and do not address the real problem (your car is too fucking low).

but why not try and do something as good as possible? or at least give someone the chance to decide what their priorities are. what's not valid to you may be valid to someone else, but as soon as i state some cons of the modification, as per the question, cats who have chosen to do this mod, whether it was an educated compromise or not, seem to take offense to it.

Can someone please post examples of this FUCA issue?? I know about notching axles and tie rods from the Euro scene but I would really like to see an example. If i am reading this correctly it sounds like the samething you need to do to the audi's (see picture) How low can you go before you have to worry about this. This is new to me and I'm trying to learn as much as possible. TIA[URL="http://farm6.static.flickr.com/5009/5216442277_a6ede6fe3f.jpg"][IMG]http://farm6.static.flickr.com/5009/5216442277_a6ede6fe3f.jpg[/IMG][/URL]

[QUOTE=OG;471076]but why not try and do something as good as possible? or at least give someone the chance to decide what their priorities are. what's not valid to you may be valid to someone else, but as soon as i state some cons of the modification, as per the question, cats who have chosen to do this mod, whether it was an educated compromise or not, seem to take offense to it.[/QUOTE]

I believe this statement is why

[QUOTE=OG;471060]
there are uca with low profile bj that accomplish the same thing. but who wants to spend all that money when you can hack some shit up and spend the change on some cosmetic mods? i mean cars are for looking at, not driving.[/QUOTE]

It's is always in everyones best interest to do something as good as possible, but then doing something as good as possible is also very subjective. For someone maybe re-engineering the front suspension in an OEM setting is "as good as possible" but for me, ensuring the third arm mounts remain in the exact same place and the welds are excellent quality with full penetration is enough for me to make modifying it as good as possible.

[QUOTE=SteveORT;471077]Can someone please post examples of this FUCA issue?[/QUOTE]

[URL="https://sphotos-b.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-snc6/197433_171716432876756_4303330_n.jpg"][IMG]https://sphotos-b.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-snc6/197433_171716432876756_4303330_n.jpg[/IMG][/URL]

Thanks guys. Well all my theories are confirmed. Never considered the RCA issue though.  I guess I agree with everybody to some extent on the subject of why and what not. I want to drive my car low. But I want it to drive [I]well[/I] low. I would agree that when you lower your car past  a certain point any hope to achieve "normal specs" is a waste of time. However, I think that certain things can be done to bring the suspension a small degree closer to the way it was originally designed, which would still be waaaay out of spec. The reason I was thinking about this mod for myself was because I thought it would relive some stress on the upper control arm ball-joint and I suspected it would make the car drive a little better.Not looking for race car handling just a solid planted feeling.I really dont experience any noise from the upper arm after cutting the hole except for extremely severe hits, so thats a non issue for me. 


Volk, did you cut the clearance  hole or did the shortened knuckle solve the banging issue by itself?


jzz30tt, it looks like the Q45 component is made of some stamped pieces. The GS knuckle is a thick fucker like probably 1 inch square at the point where the cut would be made. Could a MIG still handle this job?

may be lil oftopic, but since we are talking about the suspension and stuff, I have been surfing on MINKARA for a while and noticed that very many guys shorten their sway bar links and put bump steer tie rod ends. I havent seen enyone doing it here, may be I´m wrong, at least I havent seen. Am I the only one experiencing the bump steer ??? I really hate it !!I have already ordered parts to solve bump steer though.As for the knuckle shortenig.....drilling the hole really solves the problem, but if you are extremly low, knuckle shortening should be the right way.

[QUOTE=~~sperm~bomb~~;471284]
jzz30tt, it looks like the Q45 component is made of some stamped pieces. The GS knuckle is a thick fucker like probably 1 inch square at the point where the cut would be made. Could a MIG still handle this job?[/QUOTE]

Yea, the person behind the welder is more important than the actual welder in most cases. 

Also, pm Juzzo, he shortened his front 147 knuckles which are pretty similar to 161's iirc. 

[QUOTE=silos5;471340]As for the knuckle shortenig.....drilling the hole really solves the problem, but if you are extremely low, knuckle shortening should be the right way.[/QUOTE]

drilling hole might make the noise go away, but it's not very attractive, plus it gets the bay really dirty.

[QUOTE=silos5;471340]may be lil oftopic, but since we are talking about the suspension and stuff, I have been surfing on MINKARA for a while and noticed that very many guys shorten their sway bar links and put bump steer tie rod ends. I havent seen enyone doing it here, may be I´m wrong, at least I havent seen. Am I the only one experiencing the bump steer ??? I really hate it !!I have already ordered parts to solve bump steer though.As for the knuckle shortenig.....drilling the hole really solves the problem, but if you are extremly low, knuckle shortening should be the right way.[/QUOTE]

i run tie rod ends w/ bumpsteer spacers. improves drivability considerably. i've been looking at some short endlinks. interested to see if it flattens out the corners considerably.

[QUOTE=silos5;471340]may be lil oftopic, but since we are talking about the suspension and stuff, I have been surfing on MINKARA for a while and noticed that very many guys shorten their sway bar links and put bump steer tie rod ends. I havent seen enyone doing it here, may be I´m wrong, at least I havent seen. Am I the only one experiencing the bump steer ??? I really hate it !!I have already ordered parts to solve bump steer though.As for the knuckle shortenig.....drilling the hole really solves the problem, but if you are extremly low, knuckle shortening should be the right way.[/QUOTE]


Not off topic at all as this is along the same line of thinking that is being discussed. I think when you slam a car you create a bunch of small issues that take away from the driveability of the car. Bump-steer is one of these issues. The geometry gets all out of whack (camber and toe)and also the suspension travel is forced way out to the extremes of its operating range. My front sway bar was hitting frame so I ordered some links from FIGS,and despite being a well made product I was disappointed to find out they were only like 5mm shorter than stock in the shortest position. I plan on cutting them down at some point. And yea bump-steer is a bitch.Feels like the car has a mind of its own over certain roads. I was going to run some RCA in combination with LS400 calipers but since without shortening the knuckle it would push the upper control arm even closer to the shock tower Ill put that on hold for now.

So for right now the plan for my car is going to be, 

Front; sway bar links,tie rod ends, and upper arms.

Rear ; sway bar links,traction links, and either upper or lower arms.

OG, any word on the release of studios upper arms for the 2GS?

Hmmmmm.... Tie rod ends with bump steer spacers? What s a good brand? I must get these

japan is full of them, but they are $$$! nagisa for example.I got universal parts and will do some cuttin&weldin´

[QUOTE=volkgt7;471767]Hmmmmm.... Tie rod ends with bump steer spacers? What s a good brand? I must get these[/QUOTE]


FIGS is the best place in the states. [url]http://www.shopfigs.com/v1/[/url] The website says out of stock on the tie rod ends. Im going to E-mail them to see what the deal is.

You can also look at Ikea and Nagisa and also 326 power.

no word on fuca. i know the vip line hasn't been selling as well as hoped so i don't see them doing many more products tbh.