question on coilovers with adjustable spring load and adjustable strut body (full tap

ok guys I've called both Tein and JIC and both were unclear on this question. they didn't sound confident with their answers.

with full tap coilovers, the strut body is adjusted to control height rather than the spring perch right ? supposedly the spring perch is used to control spring load. 

now the question is......will adjusting the spring perch also contribute in the change in height ? to not change the height, the strut rod would have to be in a FIXED position right ? 

somebody clarify please.

yes, it will lower it. but then now the the stroke of the shock is shorter. which means for a bumpier ride and more of a chance to bottom out and blow the shock. 

so, if you make the perches go up, then the spring rate changes to a stiffer one and raises the car. but if i goes down the spring rate stays the same, but the stroke of the shock is shorter

yup that pretty much sums it up anthony....

best thing to do is to leave the spring perches at
default setting because thats what they designed it to
run at for your car. i spoke with tein and jic too. i actually
went to to JIC and spoke with their head tech who does
rebuilding of their shocks, and r&d on new test cars...

he taught me how or "where" to default is.  when u adjust the
spring perch so that the spring is just barely touching top and
bottom perches, u tighen it 2 turns up(the spring perch). that is
what considered to be "default"

you CAN like anthony said, adjust the stroke by compressing
the spring MORE than that or less than that default setting, and
yes compressing it more will stiffen the spring load more.

i found that leaving it at default setting and lowering the car
by just adjusting the bottom perch(moving the entire shock 
body up/down) i can lower my car 4" and it rides as if it was 1" drop.
theres no difference in feel, except in extreme cases, your suspension
can run out of room, like control arms hittin shock tower housings,
or what not, but the car rides good.

what are you trying to do? i hope some of this information helps.

yeah but the thing is,  I want the strut rod to be at full stroke while keeping the spring load low. How do I know it is on full stroke  without over tightening the spring load ?



[QUOTE=antbo;58212]yes, it will lower it. but then now the the stroke of the shock is shorter. which means for a bumpier ride and more of a chance to bottom out and blow the shock. 

so, if you make the perches go up, then the spring rate changes to a stiffer one and raises the car. but if i goes down the spring rate stays the same, but the stroke of the shock is shorter[/QUOTE]

the default position of the spring perch is relative to when the whole coilover assembly is at it's fully expanded position right ?

I hope this is default because this is how I set the spring perch. What I did was jack up the car so that the coilover assembly is at its full expanded position, I then adjusted the spring load just as you (tein and JIC) suggested.

[QUOTE=hahajoey;58222]yup that pretty much sums it up anthony....

best thing to do is to leave the spring perches at
default setting because thats what they designed it to
run at for your car. i spoke with tein and jic too. i actually
went to to JIC and spoke with their head tech who does
rebuilding of their shocks, and r&d on new test cars...

he taught me how or "where" to default is.  when u adjust the
spring perch so that the spring is just barely touching top and
bottom perches, u tighen it 2 turns up(the spring perch). that is
what considered to be "default"

you CAN like anthony said, adjust the stroke by compressing
the spring MORE than that or less than that default setting, and
yes compressing it more will stiffen the spring load more.

i found that leaving it at default setting and lowering the car
by just adjusting the bottom perch(moving the entire shock 
body up/down) i can lower my car 4" and it rides as if it was 1" drop.
theres no difference in feel, except in extreme cases, your suspension
can run out of room, like control arms hittin shock tower housings,
or what not, but the car rides good.

what are you trying to do? i hope some of this information helps.[/QUOTE]

[QUOTE=QoozyFoozy;58223]yeah but the thing is,  I want the strut rod to be at full stroke while keeping the spring load low. How do I know it is on full stroke  without over tightening the spring load ?[/QUOTE]

you have to adjust the body like joey said. so what i mean is, you know the whole part of the shock thats threaded? well that has to go down, so by going down the spring and shock stroke stays the same as how you wanted it. basically another description is. the spindle/casing goes up while the shock and spring stays the same. 

you get it : )

this will explain everything


[url]http://www.jic-magic.com/Files/34-FLT-A2%20instruction%20(distro).pdf[/url]

thanks antbo.

so when JIC states "tighten the spring seat so that the spring fits snug", Is this relative to when the entire coilover assembly is at it's FULLY EXPANDED position (car jacked up) ?

with NON full tap coilovers, "tighten the spring seat so that the spring fits snug" is an indicator that the coilover assy is at  it's maximum drop and the strut rod is getting the least amount of travel.



[QUOTE=antbo;58233]this will explain everything


[url]http://www.jic-magic.com/Files/34-FLT-A2%20instruction%20(distro).pdf[/url][/QUOTE]

[QUOTE=QoozyFoozy;58242]thanks antbo.

so when JIC states "tighten the spring seat so that the spring fits snug", Is this relative to when the entire coilover assembly is at it's FULLY EXPANDED position (car jacked up) ?

with NON full tap coilovers, "tighten the spring seat so that the spring fits snug" is an indicator that the coilover assy is at  it's maximum drop and the strut rod is getting the least amount of travel.[/QUOTE]
yup!

I think JIC gave the WRONG directions in their installation manual and this may be why antbo's ride was so harsh when he had JIC.

JIC instructs you to adjust the spring perch so that it is barely snug, about two turns from completely loose. This is like setting your conventional coilover (non adjustable strut body, non full tap) at the LOWEST setting resulting in minimum strut travel. 

I moved my algernon coilover (full tap) spring perches about half inch to 3/4 inch higher, it raised the car about half inch-3/4 inch higher, resulting in more strut rod travel, thus resulting in a better ride, keep in mind I did not use my strut body adjustment to raise height. I can still use my strut body adjustment to go lower, much lower.

I knew their instruction manual didn't make any sense. The spring perch should be adjusted so that it gives the strut MAXIMUM travel but NOT over tightened.  JIC's instructions results in the LEAST strut travel. This defeats the whole purpose with FULL TAP capability.

thats exactly how my fronts were adjusted at one point. it rode to stiff still. i cant get away from that bumpy ride, no matter how i adjusted it. think about it, JIC's they are known for there stiff suspension.

I also have jic's on my G50 and I think they need some help in the harshness department. Its just a guess but I'd say a lighter spring rate and a stiffer valved shock would make them  better. I've adjusted them (the springs)  up and down, played with the knob and I still cant find a happy medium.

the JIC people have been really good in answering questions.
you should contact them on the next business day(monday)
and see if you can speak to someone. i dealt with someone named
Yukio in the past. hopefully they can give you a good solution.

Ok
look at it like this 

THe top part where the spring is at controls your preload
Your preload is the set tension on the spring at any given time
Normally you put 10-20mm of preload on a full tap (dual adjustable also called) coilover

After thats done, throw it on the car, and put the wheel on, it may or may not drop it down further becuase you put weight on the strut and pulled it down some....it did for mine when i bought new ones...

regardless, then adjust the LOWER bracket by either spinning the whole strut assembly (only if you have pillowball mounts so the spring turns as well adn doesnt stay stationary) into the lower bracket.

dont adjust height ever by the top spring, thats not what its for

if the spring rate feels the same whether it's tight or loose, then mind as well set it high and get that extra .5 to 1" of strut rod travel.  I really don't have first hand expierence with JIC's so I can't speak for it.



[QUOTE=antbo;64821]thats exactly how my fronts were adjusted at one point. it rode to stiff still. i cant get away from that bumpy ride, no matter how i adjusted it. think about it, JIC's they are known for there stiff suspension.[/QUOTE]

[QUOTE=Private-Tuned G50;65246]I also have jic's on my G50 and I think they need some help in the harshness department. Its just a guess but I'd say a lighter spring rate and a stiffer valved shock would make them  better. I've adjusted them (the springs)  up and down, played with the knob and I still cant find a happy medium.[/QUOTE]

however,

I have changed my algernon coilover configuration and it has improved the ride dramatically. It's not even funny.  I adjusted the spring perches up about .50 to 0.75" all around (which translates to 0.50-0.75" more strut travel) and lowered it back with the strut body adjustment. 

I can take downtown la, koreatown roads with no sweat. It is MUCH MUCH MORE resilient and absorbs much much smoother without that draggy unstable feel. 

I'd reccomend all coilover owners or future coilover owners to re-evaluate their set up if they have followed JIC's installation instructions. JIC's instruction is only valid if the strut rod was at a FIXED position, this way the strut rod would be constant no matter how you set the spring rate.  

The whole point with coilovers is to re-tain maximum strut rod travel, by following JIC instructions, you are getting minimum strut travel.

[QUOTE=Yokotas13;65315]Ok
look at it like this 

THe top part where the spring is at controls your preload
Your preload is the set tension on the spring at any given time
Normally you put 10-20mm of preload on a full tap (dual adjustable also called) coilover

After thats done, throw it on the car, and put the wheel on, it may or may not drop it down further becuase you put weight on the strut and pulled it down some....it did for mine when i bought new ones...

regardless, then adjust the LOWER bracket by either spinning the whole strut assembly (only if you have pillowball mounts so the spring turns as well adn doesnt stay stationary) into the lower bracket.

dont adjust height ever by the top spring, thats not what its for[/QUOTE]

yeap, well said. and fairly simple.
Charley

Qoozy Foozy:     JIC instructs you to make the spring BARELY snugg from completely loose so that you don't CREATE PRELOAD giving you a more aggressive ride quality. That ISN'T incorrect information and that WOULD give you OPTIMUM shock travel? I don't know, i have had like 4 set's of A2's and this method works very well for me. Pre-loading too much gives you a really STIFF initial impact under load. Call Paul at JIC he's hella chill I talk to him all the time. I do believe the directions are correct if they told you to go BARELY snugg against the spring though. Pre-load isn't recommended unless your doing some custom setup

My Megan Racing's are fully adjustable. tightening the spring perch is normal for PRELOADING. Some people like it others don't, I tighten mines just til they are snug. Then the threaded body is adjusted for height.

[QUOTE=SPYblack;65809]Qoozy Foozy:     JIC instructs you to make the spring BARELY snugg from completely loose so that you don't CREATE PRELOAD giving you a more aggressive ride quality. That ISN'T incorrect information and that WOULD give you OPTIMUM shock travel? I don't know, i have had like 4 set's of A2's and this method works very well for me. Pre-loading too much gives you a really STIFF initial impact under load. Call Paul at JIC he's hella chill I talk to him all the time. I do believe the directions are correct if they told you to go BARELY snugg against the spring though. Pre-load isn't recommended unless your doing some custom setup[/QUOTE]

the problem with that
is that then sometimes you have a problem where you didnt extend the shock all the way, then when you put the wheel on, it pulls the shock down creating a gap between the spring and the perch

10-20mm of preload on a linear spring will creat no difference in ride qualiy

I think i did an equation that i found on a spring site it would take 6 or 7 CM of preload to alter the spring rate of a linear spring.

exactly. glad somebody is understanding finally.

and 6-7cm is over 2 inches, wow. 

now I'm wondering how much higher I can take my strut rods before it reaches "full tap" full travel. Full travel (or full tap) is crucial .

[QUOTE=Yokotas13;65956]the problem with that
is that then sometimes you have a problem where you didnt extend the shock all the way, then when you put the wheel on, it pulls the shock down creating a gap between the spring and the perch

10-20mm of preload on a linear spring will creat no difference in ride qualiy

I think i did an equation that i found on a spring site it would take 6 or 7 CM of preload to alter the spring rate of a linear spring.[/QUOTE]

I"m sure JIC didn't deliberately make the instructions to be wrong, or who knows ? maybe it got lost in the translation. 

but either way, it is wrong.

[QUOTE=SPYblack;65809]Qoozy Foozy:     JIC instructs you to make the spring BARELY snugg from completely loose so that you don't CREATE PRELOAD giving you a more aggressive ride quality. That ISN'T incorrect information and that WOULD give you OPTIMUM shock travel? I don't know, i have had like 4 set's of A2's and this method works very well for me. Pre-loading too much gives you a really STIFF initial impact under load. Call Paul at JIC he's hella chill I talk to him all the time. I do believe the directions are correct if they told you to go BARELY snugg against the spring though. Pre-load isn't recommended unless your doing some custom setup[/QUOTE]

i'll give this one shot.
 
jics instructions are correct. they assume that you pre-adjust the coilovers off the car or with the suspension unloaded, that way the shocks are at full rebound. raising the lower perch to the spring keeps it secure once installed on the vehicle. from there raising the lower bracket shortens the total length of the coilover while retaining full stroke.
 
the only time you should even have to think about preload is if you removed the lock collars, snugged the lower spring perch, raised the bottom bracket all the way up, and still wasn't low enough.

B.T.W. paul left jic

wow its amazing you are agreeing with what i say here, but saying im wrong in another thread

that means blackonblack is disagreeing with u, so why don't the two of you guys have at it!!! go for it!!! go get em! you go boy! sick em sick em  haha  =)

[quote=Yokotas13;139216]wow its amazing you are agreeing with what i say here, but saying im wrong in another thread[/quote]

i could care less, he doesnt know what he is talking about just like you.

My Anceltion double tap/dual adjustable coilovers just arrived today.  

They come pre-assembled with default preload.  The springs are snug in place but not compressed.  

I will be leaving to two perches at the default setting, and to adjust height I will loosen the bottom lock nut and adjusting the casing or strut assembly. 

[IMG]http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v469/Touring240/2000%20Acura%20RL/008.jpg[/IMG]
[IMG]http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v469/Touring240/2000%20Acura%20RL/004.jpg[/IMG]

Leave the top spring perch alone. "raise" the bottom perches so the shock body drops. Drop it til you feel you are low enough. If bottom out the shock body to where you can't drop it anymore, then start drooping the spring. If you are so low that you are drooping the spring though, you are probably almost on the ground with your frame.

are u sure that is the default setting ? and if it is, then is it at the point where your getting optimal stroke ? many 2 way full taps coilover instruct you to set the spring perch so that the spring sits just barely snug. I don't like these instructions because this leaves you with the lowest, shortest strut rod stroke. 

You want the optimal stroke, not too low because you will bottom out easy. Not too high because you will top out easy. Find that optimal position and then use your lower strut body adjustment to lower.

I noticed a big difference in comfort and ride quality when re-adjusting my former algernon's. 




[quote=AME_VIP;139289]My Anceltion double tap/dual adjustable coilovers just arrived today.  

They come pre-assembled with default preload.  The springs are snug in place but not compressed.  

I will be leaving to two perches at the default setting, and to adjust height I will loosen the bottom lock nut and adjusting the casing or strut assembly. 

[IMG]http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v469/Touring240/2000%20Acura%20RL/008.jpg[/IMG]
[IMG]http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v469/Touring240/2000%20Acura%20RL/004.jpg[/IMG][/quote]

I don't know what's more embarrassing, you or arguing with you. freaking joke u are. 

[quote=Yokotas13;139265]i could care less, he doesnt know what he is talking about just like you.[/quote]

don't forget to drop the axle while you at it. :pat:

[quote=BLACKonBLACK98;139205]i'll give this one shot.
 
jics instructions are correct. they assume that you pre-adjust the coilovers off the car or with the suspension unloaded, that way the shocks are at full rebound. raising the lower perch to the spring keeps it secure once installed on the vehicle. from there raising the lower bracket shortens the total length of the coilover while retaining full stroke.
 
the only time you should even have to think about preload is if you removed the lock collars, snugged the lower spring perch, raised the bottom bracket all the way up, and still wasn't low enough.[/quote]

leave it to the usual pissheads to piss on a perfectly good, helpful thread. unbelievable.

try turning a coilover without locking nuts genius. i don't see any goood information from you... all i see is you asking weak ass questions and arguing with the answer.

I just disproved JIC's install instructions, and just about every other 2 way full tap install instructions,  yet there is no good information here ?  :pat: 

you are a real piece of work. Unbelievable.

[quote=BLACKonBLACK98;139390]try turning a coilover without locking nuts genius. i don't see any goood information from you... all i see is you asking weak ass questions and arguing with the answer.[/quote]

locking nuts, turning coilovers? dropping axles, wtf are u smoking ? go back into your little rut of a hole please !!! what a complete waste of time u are. 

[quote=BLACKonBLACK98;139390]try turning a coilover without locking nuts genius. i don't see any goood information from you... all i see is you asking weak ass questions and arguing with the answer.[/quote]

so tell me BLACKONBLACK98, I single handedly, DISPROVED JIC's installation instructions, as well as probably every other 2 way full tap install instructions. 

what did you do ? other than state that you need to drop your axles to adjust your coilovers ?

and MODS please dont' lock this up. People have to be accountable for their postings.

should this argument really be going on in two separate threads? Guys keep it in one thread lol.

The default setting is to provide optimal performance of the shock. Preload causes the ride to be stiffer. The mathematic functions of a spring pretty much dictate the more preload you have on the spring the more it forces the car up. and the more energy it takes to produce wheel movement. 

the ride height barely changes (a cm at most) when you add a good bit preload to the shock/spring assembly. what you're really doing is increasing the spring's tension and getting into trouble with ride characteristics...

You've got to remember that most Coilover systems have springs in the 800lbs/in range per corner. that means 1600lbs/in all together to bring about a change equaling an inch in shock travel. if your car weighs 3800lbs and about 60% of that is over the front wheels that's 2280lbs on the front suspension. Most of these aftermarket coilovers have a shock travel of about 4-5 inches over all top out to bottom out. which is about 2.5 inches in either direction if directly centered.

Directly centered is not the optimal posistion for these coilovers though as compression will take more room than rebound.

So this is why you have 1.4" of downward movement static in this hypothetical solution. with zero spring preload, you add preload you start to remove spring "travel" and in teh function F=[I]-k[/I]x where k is the spring constant and X is distance traveled to give you F, the force the spring exerts against the force acting on it. Basically, all you're doing is chipping away at the standard droop you're given by adding preload because you're just artificially adding more "weight" (weight being the function of Gravitational Acceleration and Mass) to the car. I would advise against more preload than the factory setting on a good set of coilovers.

but BandO, let me first ask you something. What kind of full taps coilover have u used ? from what I know, you are from the acuralegend forum with a ka8 sedan with eibach lowering springs, and that's as far as I've known you to have. correct me if I'm wrong.

also, how do u know those are the factory default settings? is it marked on the threaded body sleeve? there is no marking. 

and you say the ride height barely changes when you add preload to the springs, are you kidding me ? That's what I thought when I first got my algernon's, but guess what ? I experimented with my algernon's and that is not so. 












[quote=Avantgarde;139397]should this argument really be going on in two separate threads? Guys keep it in one thread lol.

The default setting is to provide optimal performance of the shock. Preload causes the ride to be stiffer. The mathematic functions of a spring pretty much dictate the more preload you have on the spring the more it forces the car up. and the more energy it takes to produce wheel movement. 

the ride height barely changes (a cm at most) when you add a good bit preload to the shock/spring assembly. what you're really doing is increasing the spring's tension and getting into trouble with ride characteristics...

You've got to remember that most Coilover systems have springs in the 800lbs/in range per corner. that means 1600lbs/in all together to bring about a change equaling an inch in shock travel. if your car weighs 3800lbs and about 60% of that is over the front wheels that's 2280lbs on the front suspension. Most of these aftermarket coilovers have a shock travel of about 4-5 inches over all top out to bottom out. which is about 2.5 inches in either direction if directly centered.

Directly centered is not the optimal posistion for these coilovers though as compression will take more room than rebound.

So this is why you have 1.4" of downward movement static in this hypothetical solution. with zero spring preload, you add preload you start to remove spring "travel" and in teh function F=[I]-k[/I]x where k is the spring constant and X is distance traveled to give you F, the force the spring exerts against the force acting on it. Basically, all you're doing is chipping away at the standard droop you're given by adding preload because you're just artificially adding more "weight" (weight being the function of Gravity Acceleration and Mass) to the car. I would advise against more preload than the factory setting on a good set of coilovers.[/quote]

ok well you keep tinkering with your basic little setup, while those of us doing real s**t shine on you. i don't care.
 
now, just for the sake of good information, lets review the instructions:
 
[FONT=Myriad-Roman][SIZE=2][LEFT][I]ALWAYS adjust the coil over height from the bottom bracket (a), not from the spring seat (b).[/I]
[I]By doing this, you will not temper with the suspension travel.[/I][/LEFT]
[/SIZE][/FONT] 
[FONT=Myriad-Roman][SIZE=2][LEFT]1. Loosen lower bracket lock nut (a)
2. Confirm that the spring seat and the locking nut are tighten. (b1 + b2)
3. Using the wrench that comes with the kit, turn the top spring seat (b1) counter clock-wise (right to left) to lower
or bottom lock nut (b2) clock-wise (left to right) to raise the vehicle.
 
now your sub-par comprehension is telling you that because you are putting the tool on the perch that is what you are adjusting. WRONG! because of the locking nut you are still adjusting the bottom bracket by screwing into/out of it.
 
now when you have binded the upper locking nut to the lower locking nut and you are still not low enough, catch up with the big boys and pull the whole assembly out, remove the locking nuts altogether, snug the lower perch onto the spring, and then raise the lower bracket all the way to the spring perch. WAH LAH! you just lost about an inch over the total length of the coilovers without preloading the springs. [/LEFT]
[/SIZE][/FONT]

am I reading this for real ? :pat: you should quit while your ahead. 

again, I just disproved JIC's install instructions, and just about every other 2 way full tap install instructions. 

what have u done ? 





[quote=BLACKonBLACK98;139400]ok well you keep tinkering with your basic little setup, while those of us doing real s**t shine on you. i don't care.
 
now, just for the sake of good information, lets review the instructions:
 
[FONT=Myriad-Roman][SIZE=2][LEFT][I]ALWAYS adjust the coil over height from the bottom bracket (a), not from the spring seat (b).[/I]
[I]By doing this, you will not temper with the suspension travel.[/I][/LEFT]
[/SIZE][/FONT] 
[FONT=Myriad-Roman][SIZE=2][LEFT]1. Loosen lower bracket lock nut (a)
2. Confirm that the spring seat and the locking nut are tighten. (b1 + b2)
3. Using the wrench that comes with the kit, turn the top spring seat (b1) counter clock-wise (right to left) to lower
or bottom lock nut (b2) clock-wise (left to right) to raise the vehicle.
 
now your sub-par comprehension is telling you that because you are putting the tool on the perch that is what you are adjusting. WRONG! because of the locking nut you are still adjusting the bottom bracket by screwing into/out of it.
 
now when you have binded the upper locking nut to the lower locking nut and you are still not low enough, catch up with the big boys and pull the whole assembly out, remove the locking nuts altogether, snug the lower perch onto the spring, and then raise the lower bracket all the way to the spring perch. WAH LAH! you just lost about an inch over the total length of the coilovers without preloading the springs. [/LEFT]
[/SIZE][/FONT][/quote]

gone lower than you. what exactly did you disprove? cause you keep saying that but i don't see why. as a matter of fact i don't see you STATING anything.

The reason i just explained there is the reason that you have to use a spring compressor to take apart your factory Suspension systems.

when they put together a strut what happens, they compress the spring why? preload. the spring is much longer than it really needs to be, but it's also pretty weak. you give it a good 3 inches of preload  to a spring that's probably what? 180lbs/in and then you have what?

540lbs...540lbs per corner to drop it another inch. so 1080lbs to drop it another inch. but HERE'S where it's different. 

It takes that 1080lbs plus another 360lbs to drop it another inch. (180+180 corner per corner)

at 3800lbs take 60% over the front, 2280 then lose 1080 due to preload. you're left with . you left with 3.3" inches of downward travel after weight added in. This is about the norm with most cars...

4 inches of compression 3 inches of rebound.

your on my ignore list.  go play with yokotas

[quote=BLACKonBLACK98;139402]gone lower than you. what exactly did you disprove? cause you keep saying that but i don't see why. as a matter of fact i don't see you STATING anything.[/quote]

ya but bang and O with eibach springs, all of your spring preload mumbo jumbo is USELESS when your riding on 1" of strut rod travel no ?



[quote=Avantgarde;139404]The reason i just explained there is the reason that you have to use a spring compressor to take apart your factory Suspension systems.

when they put together a strut what happens, they compress the spring why? preload. the spring is much longer than it really needs to be, but it's also pretty weak. you give it a good 3 inches of preload  to a spring that's probably what? 180lbs/in and then you have what?

540lbs...540lbs per corner to drop it another inch. so 1080lbs to drop it another inch. but HERE'S where it's different. 

It takes that 1080lbs plus another 360lbs to drop it another inch. (180+180 corner per corner)

at 3800lbs take 60% over the front, 2280 then lose 1080 due to preload. you're left with . you left with 3.3" inches of downward travel after weight added in. This is about the norm with most cars...

4 inches of compression 3 inches of rebound.[/quote]

and there you have it... no answer.
 
good thing you can't read how much of a tool you are since i'm ignored.:smiley-rofl:

avantgarde bang&O, I'll go over this step by step with you.

if you read JIC's install instructions, they tell u to just preload the springs so that they are just barely snug correct ?

oh crap ! ignore list works wonders !!!

[QUOTE=Qclass;139399]but BandO, let me first ask you something. What kind of full taps coilover have u used ? [B]from what I know, you are from the acuralegend forum with a ka8 sedan with eibach lowering springs, and that's as far as I've known you to have. [/B]correct me if I'm wrong.

also, how do u know those are the factory default settings? is it marked on the threaded body sleeve? there is no marking. 

and you say the ride height barely changes when you add preload to the springs, are you kidding me ? That's what I thought when I first got my algernon's, but guess what ? I experimented with my algernon's and that is not so.[/QUOTE]

there sir you are wrong...

Ka7 I used to have, and I didn't fool with lowbudget solutions like Eibach lowering springs "and the like-such as" (Ms. South Carolina).

Also I have worked with Some weekend autocrossers as well as, while in College, Joe Gibb's Racing in North Carolina.

What's your experience? you bought a set of coilovers and now you know everything there is to know about suspension tuning LOL. Guys like that kill me, that's how people get killed in Ferraris and Porsches...just because you bought a fast car doesn't mean you automatically know how to drive.

ok whatever avantgarde bang&O, let's take this step by step. Maybe I came off a little too harsh. And yes maybe I can learn something from a autocross guy like u.

if you read JIC's install instructions, they tell u to just preload the springs so that they are just barely snug correct ?

[quote=Avantgarde;139413]there sir you are wrong...

Ka7 I used to have, and I didn't fool with lowbudget solutions like Eibach lowering springs "and the like-such as" (Ms. South Carolina).

Also I have worked with Some weekend autocrossers as well as, while in College, Joe Gibb's Racing in North Carolina.

What's your experience? you bought a set of coilovers and now you know everything there is to know about suspension tuning LOL. Guy like that kill me, that's how people get killed in Ferrari and Porsches...just because you have it doesn't mean you automatically know how to drive.[/quote]

c'mon avantgarde BandO,

I don't claim to be any suspension pro by far, I'm not a suspension pro, in fact I don't even claim to be.  but I do know a few things that just don't make sense. 

let's take this step by step:

you claim to be against my findings, so this means you agree with JIC's instructions right ?

JIC instructions instruct you to set the spring load so that the springs sit barely snug. Let's not bring up the lower strut body adjustment just yet, let's leave that out of the equation for now. 

so far we agree right ?

What's there to debate? 

You told me in the other thread "you [I]NEED[/I] to be stiffer the lower you are" I said in general form you ride stiffer when you go lower. 

I never said you NEED to be stiffer. It's been implied that when you lower the car, you bring the piston closer to the bottom of the shock travel. The only thing everyone, including myself, has said is that on street intentioned aftermarket coilover systems, Ride height is not commensurate with shock travel.

It's been about 5 or 6 years since TEIN introduced to the US, the Double Height adjustable concept. That concept has spread to just about every suspension manufacturer. This is why "stroke is reduced when ride hieght is lowered" is not the case anymore. That's all...

when you lower your car on Anceltion, Aimgain, JIC, Buddy Club, Algernon, Aistar, TEIN, Bold World, Vlene, etc. You're using the adjustable sleeve for ride height, not adjusting spring position...


[B]So now about the Spring preload, Yes. Just snug to the spring...preload is at most 10-50lbs (TEIN does more) for most of these systems. I'll see where you're taking it before i explain the reason for that.
[/B]

ah OK, so just snug to the spring  is your answer. so you've admitted about two times that JIC instructions is correct. 

Ok, now with generic non full tap, [B]one way coilovers[/B].....would you say it is a good idea to run them at the lowest setting ? that is the equivalent to the spring preload just snug to the spring seat. (leave the lower strut body adjustment out of the equation) . [B](and remember, u said with your own words that "just snug" was your answer, do not even try to change your words)[/B]

I cannot believe a person who claims to have such experience about suspension has to be cornered into something like this.



 



[quote=Avantgarde;139463]


[B]So now about the Spring preload, Yes. Just snug to the spring...preload is at most 10-50lbs (TEIN does more) for most of these systems. I'll see where you're taking it before i explain the reason for that.
[/B][/quote]

:lockd: 
 
this is obviously going no where. qclass is just going to continue to fight the losing battle yet keep saying hes right because he doesn't understand how coilovers work. for the sake of stopping the misinformation PLEASE:
 
:lockd:

I agree BlackonBlack...

He hasn't grasped the concept of a Height/Load separate adjustments so i'm not going to continue with it.

Qclass...I suggest you go research a bit about suspension systems and report your findings. I've led you to the water, it's now your turn to drink

 [IMG]http://www.ecsodus.com/PSNC/images/smilie.gif[/IMG]



Since I did say that I would explain it once i found out where he was going, I guess i'll explain it now.

Remember before when I gave you that information about preload? How it works, why Auto manufacturers do what they do? Read it again...compare the numbers with Aftermarket Coilover systems.

If you read the post, and absorbed the information i gave you, you'd now understand that coilovers do not have 180lbs/in springs.

Hell even most single adjustable suspension systems don't have 180lbs/in springs. they're typically around 300-500. Given that they require less preload for the weight of the car they will be installed in, this is why aftermarket springs are shorter than standard springs. A springs geometry and construction and general rule of operation is on the number of coils it has and its K-constant determine its strength.

SO! all that said, When you have a single adjustable system and use "drop springs" on a basic lowbudget street system like Konis and Vogtland or something like that, The springs are shorter than factory springs but they're stronger. a misconception is that they're shorter to lower the car, this isn't entirely true. they have a different K-Constant, and they have less coils,they may be weaker than the factory's K-Rating but the number of coils and the way they're wound will have an impact on their Force Rating (i.e. Lbs/in).

The way the single adjustables work is lowering the car by altering preload and height. If it's not already apparent, Spring compressors are required for lowering springs in order to install them on struts in 80% of the cases. even though they still are preloaded to a ceratain extent, the spring is shorter and the preload will be about the same as factory which will drop the car lower. What makes this different than cutting factory springs is when you shorten a factory spring you inherently change its force rating. Cut springs are actually higher in Lbs/In than uncut factory springs. That's why cut springs are bouncy on stock shocks (they over power the shocks valving) there's a way to calculate that exact change, but i've forgotten the formula.

In single Adjustable solutions, using a threaded column to actually adjust the spring isn't smart because it affects the travel. 
[COLOR="Red"][B][I]THIS IS WHY IT IS NO LONGER DONE BY MOST MANUFACTURERS!!!![/I][/B][/COLOR].





OK Now to the point....

[B]WHY HEIGHT ADJUSTABLES HAVE LITTLE PRELOAD[/B]

Height adjustables don't use much preload because the spring and the shock are pretty well matched to one another and the spring rate themselves are outrageously high.

Again, take a look at the spring rates of Coil overs...
Ksport's LS kit     [B]1080lbs/in[/B]
Aimgains G50 Kit  [B]782lbs/in[/B]
Algernons KA9 kit  [b]670lbs/in[/b]

These car's spring rates are 170lbs/in for the UCF20, 160lbs/in for the G50, and 140lb/in for the KA9 Factory if i recall correctly.

These springs meet preload specifications simply by being installed...why would you preload a 1000lb/in spring??? why would you preload a 800lbs/in spring? it doesn't make sense...

TEIN spends their life engineering suspensions systems. They'd know more about how to install a system a little more proficiently than you..

oh I see, now u want this thread to be locked ? 

of course first your going to use the  "you don't know anything, go do some research" cop out answer right ?

answer the question buddy ? don't cop out.

with generic non full tap, [B]one way coilovers[/B].....would you say it is a good idea to run them at the lowest setting ? that is the equivalent to the spring preload just snug to the spring seat. (leave the lower strut body adjustment out of the equation)



[quote=Avantgarde;139478]I agree BlackonBlack...

He hasn't grasped the concept of a Height/Load separate adjustments so i'm not going to continue with it.

Qclass...I suggest you go research a bit about suspension systems and report your findings. I've led you to the water, it's now your turn to drink

 [IMG]http://www.ecsodus.com/PSNC/images/smilie.gif[/IMG][/quote]

smiley faces and agreeing with blackonblack doesn't answer the question I just asked you.....


[B]with generic non full tap, one way coilovers.....would you say it is a good idea to run them at the lowest setting ? that is the equivalent to the spring preload just snug to the spring seat. (leave the lower strut body adjustment out of the equation)[/B]



[quote=Avantgarde;139478]I agree BlackonBlack...



 [IMG]http://www.ecsodus.com/PSNC/images/smilie.gif[/IMG][/quote]

BandO, u are so full of it, your crap doesn't hold water and u know it. 

now don't forget the answer you gave to my first question, please answer this below:

with generic non full tap, [B]one way coilovers[/B].....would you say it is a good idea to run them at the lowest setting ? that is the equivalent to the spring preload just snug to the spring seat. (leave the lower strut body adjustment out of the equation)


[quote=Avantgarde;139478]I agree BlackonBlack...

He hasn't grasped the concept of a Height/Load separate adjustments so i'm not going to continue with it.

Qclass...I suggest you go research a bit about suspension systems and report your findings. I've led you to the water, it's now your turn to drink

 [IMG]http://www.ecsodus.com/PSNC/images/smilie.gif[/IMG]

Since I did say that I would explain it once i found out where he was going, I guess i'll explain it now.

Remember before when I gave you that information about preload? How it works, why Auto manufacturers do what they do? Read it again...compare the numbers with Aftermarket Coilover systems.

If you read the post, and absorbed the information i gave you, you'd now understand that coilovers do not have 180lbs/in springs.

Hell even most single adjustable suspension systems don't have 180lbs/in springs. they're typically around 300-500. Given that they require less preload for the weight of the car they will be installed in. This is why aftermarket springs are shorter than standard springs. A springs geometry and contruction and general rule of operation is on the number of coils it has and its K-constant. 

SO! all that said....

(commercial break)[/quote]

mods please do not close this, these newbies gotta be accountable. 

end result= zero credibility.

bang and O, avantgarde = still waiting on answer.

[quote=Qclass]Ok, now with generic non full tap, one way coilovers.....would you say it is a good idea to run them at the lowest setting ? that is the equivalent to the spring preload just snug to the spring seat.[/quote]

That's what's throwing you off. What's your fetish with single adjustable systems? You jump into a thread regarding K-Sport which is a double Adjustable system spouting about what you think (not what's fact) about suspension systems. Now you're desperately trying to save face by trying swirl what i've said...

Interesting...there's no "civil debating" with you if you're trying to figure out how to be right all the time. stop for a minute. Absorb information, research what you're talking about and please don't post on this subject until you've turned in a 3 page paper about suspension functions.

EDIT:


The Answer to your question is right there in about 30 posts regarding suspension in the last 5 days. What aren't you getting?

I mean are you really that thick? No offense because i feel like i'm talking to a talking brick wall that keeps asking the same question over and over again without understanding the answer...i've put it as plainly as I can...i don't know what else to tell you bro...

I can't give you all the answers...in order to understand suspensions on a higher level, you're going to have to put some time in upgrading your own knowledge.



LMFAO@Newbies accountability...

This insulting a person tactic may work on younger or less refined individuals, but sorry, it wont work on me. I've said my piece and you're looking for a fight. I wont give you one...sorry.

what is my infatuation with single tap coils ? well it's because it is a hybrid of how double tap coilovers work.

you gonna keep dodging the question ?

[B] with generic non full tap, one way coilovers.....would you say it is a good idea to run them at the lowest setting ? that is the equivalent to the spring preload just snug to the spring seat. (leave the lower strut body adjustment out of the equation)

[/B]

[quote=Avantgarde;139503]That's what's throwing you off. What's your fetish with single adjustable systems? You jump into a thread regarding K-Sport which is a double Adjustable system spouting about what you think (not what's fact) about suspension systems. Now you're desperately trying to save face by trying swirl what i've said...

Interesting...there's no "civil debating" with you if you're trying to figure out how to be right all the time. stop for a minute. Absorb information, research what you're talking about and please don't post on this subject until you've turned in a 3 page paper about suspension functions.[/quote]

[SIZE=7]IVAN, you still have NOT answered the question: since your such a suspension pro and wrote 3 pages worth of paper on it....answer the question:

[/SIZE] 
[B] with generic non full tap, one way coilovers.....would you say it is a good idea to run them at the lowest setting ? that is the equivalent to the spring preload just snug to the spring seat. (leave the lower strut body adjustment out of the equation)


[/B]

having the spring perch at full low on a single tap is equivelent in preload, but shortens the amount of comprssions stroke which is why you are supposed to snug the spring. single tap coilovers only have 1 optimal height, which is why double tap is around. so you can have it at the optimal position of snug and (non) preload, yet still adjust height by adjusting the overall length of the coilover.
 
oh wait... you're a tool that asks a question and then ignores the answer. somebody copy and paste for this idiot, i want to see wyhere hes going.

Ivan, in bold below with your own word: you quickly and clearly answered my first question:

Yet you have DODGED my 2nd question in every way possible:

[B] with generic non full tap, one way coilovers.....would you say it is a good idea to run them at the lowest setting ? that is the equivalent to the spring preload just snug to the spring seat. (leave the lower strut body adjustment out of the equation)
[/B]
what's up ivan ?
[quote=Avantgarde;139463]




[B]So now about the Spring preload, Yes. Just snug to the spring...preload is at most 10-50lbs (TEIN does more) for most of these systems. I'll see where you're taking it before i explain the reason for that.
[/B][/quote]

[quote=BLACKonBLACK98]having the spring perch at full low on a single tap is equivelent in preload, but shortens the amount of comprssions stroke which is why you are supposed to snug the spring. single tap coilovers only have 1 optimal height, which is why double tap is around. so you can have it at the optimal position of snug and (non) preload, yet still adjust height by adjusting the overall length of the coilover.

oh wait... you're a tool that asks a question and then ignores the answer. somebody copy and paste for this idiot, i want to see where hes going.[/quote]

Thank You bro. I wrote all that information out, and he didn't read it.

I'll quote DMX and say...
"Never told him nothing wrong, I kept it fair
He didn't listen, so I might as well been talkin to the air"
:pat: 

*sigh* I'll let this one go now.

ivan, where in the last 5 days ? you just started posting about this TODAY. So how can the answer be there in the last 5 days ? c'mon Ivan, go read up on that 3 page term paper again. please. I'm waiting on an answer.


[quote=Avantgarde;139503]


The Answer to your question is right there in about 30 posts regarding suspension in the last 5 days. What aren't you getting?




LMFAO@Newbies accountability...

This insulting a person tactic may work on younger or less refined individuals, but sorry, it wont work on me. I've said my piece and you're looking for a fight. I wont give you one...sorry.[/quote]

Ivan you sneaky guy you, blackonblack's remarks says NOTHING. What you write are all generic stuff that's been said all over suspension manufacturer websites.

We all know that it is a bad idea to run a single tap coilover system on it's lowest perch setting. This causes bumpy, uncomfortable, low reliability, low durability on the coilover system. 

But yet this is exactly how you suggest that a 2 way full tap system be set up.

Here's your quote:

[B]So now about the Spring preload, Yes. Just snug to the spring...preload is at most 10-50lbs (TEIN does more) for most of these systems. I'll see where you're taking it before i explain the reason for that.

[/B]So Ivan, why would you set up a 2 way, full tap coilover with "just snug" to spring seat  ? when you wouldn't do it to a one way standard set up ?







[quote=Avantgarde;139514]Thank You bro. I wrote all that information out, and he didn't read it.

I'll quote DMX and say...
"Never told him nothing wrong, I kept it fair
He didn't listen, so I might as well been talkin to the air"
:pat: 

*sigh* I'll let this one go now.[/quote]

and Ivan, thanking blackonblack for support is really [B]WEAK [/B]and shows how sorry you are.

and ivan, just a FYI- 

[B]YOUR BUDDY BLACKONBLACK HASN'T ANSWERED THE QUESTION EITHER.[/B]



[quote=Avantgarde;139514]Thank You bro. I wrote all that information out, and he didn't read it.

I'll quote DMX and say...
"Never told him nothing wrong, I kept it fair
He didn't listen, so I might as well been talkin to the air"
:pat: 

*sigh* I'll let this one go now.[/quote]

[quote=Qclass]So Ivan, why would you set up a 2 way, full tap coilover with "just snug" to spring seat ? when you wouldn't do it to a one way standard set up ?[/quote]

Did you just really ask that ?!?!?!?!?!?!

:smiley-rofl: :smiley-rofl: :smiley-rofl: :smiley-rofl: :smiley-rofl: :smiley-rofl: :smiley-rofl: :smiley-rofl:

I'm completely certain now that you're completely uninformed about suspension systems...I can't believe i gave you credence. LOL! My bad...

Also, I'd appreciate it f you didn't call me names like SOB or any other thing you can think of. I have NOT called you ONE thing in this thread or ANY thread for that matter. Respect that. 

If you want to be childish, be childish, but don't you dare take it to calling names. Grow up one time...

What are you like 35 acting like a kid?

Ivan, you can LOL and throw up little happy faces al you want, but you nor blackonblack has directly answered the question.

untill you or your little girlfriend ANSWERS  this question in a direct truthful way:

[B] with generic non full tap, one way coilovers.....would you say it is a good idea to run them at the lowest setting ? that is the equivalent to the spring preload just snug to the spring seat. (leave the lower strut body adjustment out of the equation)

it's CHECK MATE !


[/B]

[quote=Avantgarde;139525]Did you just really ask that ?!?!?!?!?!?!

:smiley-rofl: :smiley-rofl: :smiley-rofl: :smiley-rofl: :smiley-rofl: :smiley-rofl: :smiley-rofl: :smiley-rofl:

I'm completely certain now that you're completely uninformed about suspension systems...I can't believe i gave you credence. LOL! My bad...

Also, I'd appreciate it f you didn't call me names like SOB or any other thing you can think of. I have NOT called you ONE thing in this thread or ANY thread for that matter. Respect that. 

If you want to be childish, be childish, but don't you dare take it to calling names. Grow up one time...

What are you like 35 acting like a kid?[/quote]

The answer to your question is in my posts...you really should take the time to read it.

sure ivan, ya it's in there.

[SIZE=6][B]CHECK MATE[/B][/SIZE]

[quote=Avantgarde;139531]The answer to your question is in my posts...you really should take the time to read it.[/quote]

Yep You win. I have no clue what i'm talking about. I'm just some fat pimplefaced 12 y/o with bad breath and a rainbow afro wig debating simultaneously the methods of Worlds of Warcraft and the intricacies of Tuning Suspension...

I'm sorry, you're the master Jimmy. I apologize. [IMg]http://www.acura-legend.com/vbulletin/images/smilies/bowdown.gif[/IMG]

If you guys do this one more time I'm giving infractions to ALL OF YOU.  I don't care who started it or what came of it, or who was right, who was wrong.  You guys have now TWICE gone overboard with one of the lamest arguments.  I refuse to comment on them since it's not a conversation..it's a contest.  GROW UP!!