What went wrong with US Automakers?

Besides our love of all things JDM, there has to be more reasons behind the collapse of the US Auto market. Our industry is in a struggle like never before in it's long history.... 
 
Where do you think they went wrong? What would you do to 'fix' the problem?
 
 
 
 
[B][COLOR=yellowgreen]:thelaw: DO NOT POST IGNORANT/SMART-ASS ANSWERS TRYING 2 BE FUNNY[/COLOR][/B] :thelaw:

I think it's just a by product of our mindset as American's on the whole. It always has to be bigger, better, more. This is a complex issue but America is a consumer society, cars aren't made to last because the masses don't need them to when you buy a new car every couple years.

[quote=DriftGirl;105035]Besides our love of all things JDM, there has to be more reasons behind the collapse of the US Auto market. Our industry is in a struggle like never before in it's long history.... 
 
Where do you think they went wrong? What would you do to 'fix' the problem?
 
 
 
 
[B][COLOR=yellowgreen]:thelaw: DO NOT POST IGNORANT/SMART-ASS ANSWERS TRYING 2 BE FUNNY[/COLOR][/B] :thelaw:[/quote]
 
The Unions is what went wrong.

[QUOTE=MKIVPWR;105039]The Unions is what went wrong.[/QUOTE]

i came here to say this
there'll be no more union in 20, may be even 10 year because of the union

[quote=b005td;105053]i came here to say this
there'll be no more union in 20, may be even 10 year because of the union[/quote]
 
[COLOR=#dbdbdb]Agreed.[/COLOR]
 
[COLOR=#dbdbdb]Look, these US auto manufactures embrace these unions and that is the whole problem. They corrupt the business, cause grief and God know what else.[/COLOR]
 
[COLOR=#dbdbdb]Let’s face it (and no offense to those that do or have family that do) but US auto workers need to have a serious wake up call. Maybe a wake up like one day not having a job at all, I did, three months ago when literally my company "First Magnus", without prior indication closed its doors. There is nothing wrong with wanting a bit more money, but put it into perspective and be realistic.[/COLOR]
 
[COLOR=#dbdbdb]These complaints about they want more money every year is exactly what kills the US car manufactures. Ever notice you don't see Toyota, Nissan, or other import manufactures with issue like this, because they don't allow the unions in. [/COLOR]
 
[COLOR=#dbdbdb]Give me a break; you put parts on a car that are more often almost entirely assembled by robots. Your job is not back breaking or as hard as you claim or think, try digging a ditch, building a house, or better yet cleaning sewer systems. But they want more money to assemble a damn car, in a AC environment and loaded with benefits?? Are they kidding? Be happy you have a job![/COLOR]
[COLOR=#dbdbdb]Try slaving in the hot sun or in the cold!. Try not having a job at all, how about that! If I was the CEO of an auto manufacture, I'd fire every person on the picket line, and have a line of applicants lined up around the building ready to replace. You'll see how fast they'd change their tune.[/COLOR]
 
[COLOR=#dbdbdb]They should try this on for size since they think they have it sooo bad...[/COLOR]
[COLOR=#dbdbdb]How about putting your life on the line, like law enforcement officers, EMTs' and firefighters. How about having to grab your gear at a moments notice and go fight thousands of miles away from your family and friends in the sand box and risk your life for those very freedoms you complain you don't have or get enough of?!? [/COLOR]
[COLOR=#dbdbdb]You don't find these people picketing and complaining about wanting more absurd amounts of money![/COLOR]
 
[COLOR=#dbdbdb]And what chaps my ass even more, movie entertainers and sports entertainers, with the nerve and audacity to complain they're not making enough. There is no excuse for their childish behavior and greed. [/COLOR]
 
[COLOR=#dbdbdb]FYI: Got a new job as an IT network systems admin, glad to have a job now.[/COLOR]
[COLOR=#dbdbdb]and I'm a reservist with the military and combat ready.[/COLOR]
[COLOR=#dbdbdb]My father is a law enforcment officer since he was 18, has been all my life...I'm 34.[/COLOR]
 
[COLOR=#dbdbdb]"Those that have a little, have a lot"[/COLOR]
 
EDITED: To remove a few choice of angry words. 
My blood tends to boil when I talk or think about issues like this, in this day and age.

The same can be said for IT workers, Police,military or EMT. they know the job is hard and how little it pays (in comparison) before taking it...Doesnt mean anyone is above the next. Without factory workers, ditch diggers, etc, there wouldnt be money to pay police, military, etc salary. 
 
Lets tone it down a bit. We have people who work in every industry that youve mentioned and they deserve respect...as do you. 
 
I understand and respect your passion, but Lets have a respectful conversation in regards to issues that plague the industry. 
 
I dont personally feel that their wages are the big issue. It wouldnt matter if they worked for free...the cars arent selling at any price. :sad: 
 
With that said, the corvette is the only new US car id ever consider buying. I do have 2 chevys, but they are old cars from another era. :smiley:

[quote=DriftGirl;105080]The same can be said for IT workers, Police,military or EMT. they know the job is hard and how little it pays (in comparison) before taking it...Doesnt mean anyone is above the next. Without factory workers, ditch diggers, etc, there wouldnt be money to pay police, military, etc salary. 
 
Lets tone it down a bit. We have people who work in every industry that youve mentioned and they deserve respect...as do you. 
 
I understand and respect your passion, but Lets have a respectful conversation in regards to issues that plague the industry. 
 
I dont personally feel that their wages are the big issue. It wouldnt matter if they worked for free...the cars arent selling at any price. :sad: 
 
With that said, the corvette is the only new US car id ever consider buying. I do have 2 chevys, but they are old cars from another era. :smiley:[/quote]
 
[COLOR=#dbdbdb]You completely misunderstood what I wrote. Nobody said that anyone’s job was of higher status then another, however when you're complaining as to what amount of money you're making, you need to stop an evaluate what exactly your job entails as compared to those that are in more danger or in a more stressful and back breaking environment then a US auto factory worker. [/COLOR]
[COLOR=#dbdbdb]And all it takes is to look on these said manufacture websites, or watch the news when they flash pictures of the indoor work environment to know, they don't have it bad. [/COLOR]
[COLOR=#dbdbdb]And as I stated before, it's the unions that encourage this behavior but fail to put things into perspective. And then Americans wonder why Corporations bring the work to other countries? It's because the people in these other countries see a wonderful opportunity and take it for far less pay, why, because it's a job, and it pays the bills and then some. Something I believe Americans fail to realize and take into consideration many times.[/COLOR]
 
[COLOR=#dbdbdb]And too boot, these US auto factory workers make darn good money even at a starting rate. I meant no disrespect to anyone or any type of job, however people tend not to evaluate their job and realistically compare it to others.[/COLOR]
[COLOR=#dbdbdb]I make good money in IT work and have no complaints, but I would have to be out of my mind to have a nerve to complain or start a protest about my pay, when all I have to do is look over at the construction worker busting his rear for far less money then I am making to do far less work. That was the point I was trying to make.[/COLOR]
 
[COLOR=#dbdbdb]Your question was why the US car companies are not doing well, right? Well the short of it is, unions.[/COLOR]
[COLOR=#dbdbdb]They force US auto manufactures to pay ridiculous amounts of money to employees, which in turn forces the manufacture to cut costs on quality and that in turn results in poor reliability and resale value... and the vicious cycle goes round and round. [/COLOR]
[COLOR=#dbdbdb]That's why. US auto manufactures are forced to make half ass quality to overcome their over budget employees that complain about pay, as if they are whipped everyday and work ridiculous overtime without any overtime pay or compensation. And part of their complaint is a direct result of overextending themselves and living the good life way out of their means.[/COLOR]
[COLOR=#dbdbdb]Somehow people have lost the value of the dollar and the meaning of having a job in this day and age, basic principle number one, don't spend more then you make. Don't put yourself into ridiculous debt and you wouldn't have to be stressing and complaining about not making enough.[/COLOR]
 
[COLOR=#dbdbdb]Import auto manufactures both in the US and overseas function on a different mind set, here is your pay and benefits, here is your work schedule. You'll get an annual pay raise, the longer you stay the more you make. Don't like it, that's fine too, there is the door and when you leave there is another guy coming in to take your job that's going to be happy that he has a job. [/COLOR]
[COLOR=#dbdbdb]Hence the reason they don't allow unions in, because they know the end result is poor quality and unreliable autos, that they are simply not looking to make that sacrifice for, because in turn, they know that what they are doing now and the mindset they are on now brings repeat customers every single day.[/COLOR]
 
[COLOR=#dbdbdb]Again, and allow me to stress, I mean no harm or disrespect, however I am offering my belief and answer to your question.[/COLOR]

Hopefully I don't come across as an idiot with this, but i'm just contributing. There are other factors as well from the consumer stand point as well. With the exception of trucks, most of the US mkt cars are terribly hard to work on, and seems purposely designed that way as well. Sure we can purchase the parts to save a buck but installation is the draw-back. Also, it seems as though JApanese and European design seems to be working in the same direction in regards to style whereas our mkt tries to break away creating some damn ugly children, thus affecting the visual appeal. Ppl will pay top dollar for autos that reflect the value they are recieving, but riding around in some recently newer designed rentals, i got nothin to say buy, poorly concieved intertior design (cheap looking if you will) and an indecisive exterior (boxy or sleak?) can't have both....IMO.....

[quote=MKIVPWR;105091][COLOR=#dbdbdb]don't spend more then you make. Don't put yourself into ridiculous debt and you wouldn't have to be stressing and complaining about not making enough.[/COLOR]
 
[/quote]
 
it is honestly this simple. me and my friend always debate about why he lives in such a nice area and has a job and cant seem to have enough money while living out of his parents house driving his parents car on his parents insurance and gas money and he is always unhappy but i come from a low class background im in the National Guard while going to school and get paid only a few dollars over minimum at my security work while paying far more bills then him yet i seem to live a simple, happy life. its cuz i dont buy shit unless i have the money. and i save for bad times...i was out of work for a month and i was still able to pay bills and live. i found this out by living on my own since i was 15. im 19 now.

Totally understandable. But you have to consider the tax credits/breaks large companies get when they do outsource US jobs. A man cannot support his family on what a call center employee earns in India for the same job....Our economy simply isnt set up like that. :sad:  
 
every company would like to pay employees less...EVERY COMPANY. 
 
I agree with you on people who live outside of their means. Our Import Tuner scene is a prime example....and would make a great thread if someone wants to start one on the subject. :biggthumpup: 
 
With our current administration the job classsifications have severely changed. A Mcdonalds worker is now a 'Manufacturer'.  Not downing McD's workers but its an entry level job to working unless you're in management. There are only so many manger spots per McDonalds. Doing this was a way to hide the fact that our economy was NOT growing where it needed to be. 
 
unions typically fight for their employees to maintain a standard of living....as the cost of living goes up.And It has gone WAYYYYY upi in recent times. I dont know exact numbers in regards to the average pay,so I cant speculate.  
What I will say is:  If you work in a automotive manufacturing, you should be able to pay your mortgage and keep up with the cost of living. its not the same as McD's and shouldnt be paid the same. 
 
So even if they are losing money on unions and wages...they still arent selling cars.
 
My thoughts are that the industry got lazy. Living off of stuff they did in the past and not growing.  
 
At the same time, the rest of the world was catching up in design,technology and manufacturing.....

The products? American interiors have always been low quality at best. When you get inside a car that doesn't feel solid, right, or build well enough, why would you bother to spend your hard earned money on it when a comparable import is leaps and bounds better.  How do you think lexus has sold SO many damn cars! With their cutting edge agressive styling?[/sarcasm] No, it is afterall, whats on the inside that counts.

Its easy to blame the unions and they are in part to blame, but look at the products america has to offer then make a decision from there. The 300/magnum/charger was a quality car with a very decent interior and options at a good price, and american's beat down the dealers doors to buy one. America needs more cars like that, and less imitaions of the japanese.

[QUOTE=urmyhero4now;105104]it is honestly this simple. me and my friend always debate about why he lives in such a nice area and has a job and cant seem to have enough money while living out of his parents house driving his parents car on his parents insurance and gas money and he is always unhappy but i come from a low class background im in the National Guard while going to school and get paid only a few dollars over minimum at my security work while paying far more bills then him yet i seem to live a simple, happy life. its cuz i dont buy shit unless i have the money. and i save for bad times...i was out of work for a month and i was still able to pay bills and live. i found this out by living on my own since i was 15. im 19 now.[/QUOTE]

I know what you mean, people worry too much about status and ect to the point they will put them self in debt.

Heck, im a soon to be U.S. Marine, already drive a nice car for my age WITH MY OWN MONEY. And soon to move out and im only 18.

blame the union.  great workers get more money and benefits, but that means the manufacturer has to find ways to make a product more profitable.  raise prices and find cheaper ways to manufacture.

Let me get this right. You guys are sayin' that the union is the reason as to why Domestic car sales are low? That the problem spans from production issues that led to economical ones? That if not for those things, ppl would be purshasing USA made vehicles? Quality is a choice, if companies have to compromise that to create a product then the problem is the company. Look companies are cheap, we all know that and hence the reason for unions. It's within the company that makes a product what it is. I'm sayin' the aspect of luxary, or quality either is or is not part of the foundation of a company. BTW most of the cars produced here look like crap anyways IMO, hence my GS and this site....

i work at a union shop.  we ship parts mostly to ford and some to gm and lexus.   they have a saying "when in doubt ship it out".  ive seen the horrible stuff sent out and was even told to let it go.  now if we're just a supplier and do that, what do the big guys do?  my point is quality is crap.   we make parts for lexus and they constantly reject even the slightest flaw and they threaten to cancel the contract all the time.  while we ship crap to ford all the time at a higher volume and stuff gets by without a hiccup.

[quote=DriftGirl;105035]Besides our love of all things JDM, there has to be more reasons behind the collapse of the US Auto market. Our industry is in a struggle like never before in it's long history.... 
 
Where do you think they went wrong? What would you do to 'fix' the problem?
 
 
 
 
[B][COLOR=yellowgreen]:thelaw: DO NOT POST IGNORANT/SMART-ASS ANSWERS TRYING 2 BE FUNNY[/COLOR][/B] :thelaw:[/quote]
IMO
the us automakers are makinga comeback

wiht the 300 cars
magnum
new camaro
the other one that is a retro commign back
saturn sky
solstice

there is a nice big handful of cars that have huge potential.
i think it just takes time to rebuild from years of everyone knowing you fail at life for building cars.

The problem is basically what Hyu said the American market has quality control issues and don't back up their issues. My friends tranny went in his Explorer at 36,500 miles but the warranty was up at 36k yet Ford wouldnt replace or give him a break on labor. What he did was trade in the Explorer and the Lincoln Navigator he had and bought BMW 328xi and X3 instead with cheaper lease rates and better warranty.

I think we can have warrantee issues with any company. My BMW needed an 11k tranny operation and I had a hard time getting them to cover it....some are better than others, but all have a horror story or two. 
 
[I]Quality control[/I] I agree with....and now I can see one of the reasons: We've got a vendor employee here who 's bosses think its the automakers fault that they produce flawed parts and ship them to US manufacturers. 
 
Maybe those US manufacturers should outsource those jobs as well? but then they'ed be complaining that they shipped your job out and closed your factory....
 
MANY reasons why our Automakers are failing. :sad:

[quote=Yokotas13;105303]IMO
the us automakers are makinga comeback
 
wiht the 300 cars
magnum
new camaro
the other one that is a retro commign back
saturn sky
solstice
 
there is a nice big handful of cars that have huge potential.
i think it just takes time to rebuild from years of everyone knowing you fail at life for building cars.[/quote]
i agree. us cars are making a comeback imo. look at chrystler who was about a year away from being shut down completely a couple years ago. gm had to sell their cars at a loss for a while just to recoupe some money, but they're doin ok now. ford... i don't know about them.

It all started with the 70s gas crisis...

[IMG]http://www.unityteam.org/images/live_better_work_union.jpg[/IMG]

Well, let's look around. What is the best performance based car any manufacturer makes stateside? Toyota? nothing. Nissan? 350Z that Keiichi Tsuchiya said handles like an American car, lol. The GTR will be for rich 60 year old guys @ 80G's. does Isuzu exist? Oh yeahthey make copies of GMC trucks. Hyundai/Kia/Daewoo, Tiburon, yay. GM? Bob Lutz is finally having his way like he did @ Chysler. Get more german engineering into the cars with better fit an finish. new interiors are not bad. Mitsubishi? Lancer with EVO on the way. Still bigger and softer than the old boy racer it once was. Same goes for Subaru. generally boring looking now. Save for the Impreza STI wagon. If we get it. Ford? they just don't get it. They have these great Euro cars and refuse to sell them here. Working for Saturn tho. Our cars are getting chubby and they are ugly. I said I'd I wouldn't buy an american car, but some of those new GM's are looking mighty nice.

the new mustang has been catching my eye lately.   airrunners has a kit for it, my brothers company makes a fuel system for it, turbonetics has a sweet turbo kit, hell i live in michigan might as well drive like the rest.  did i already mention that airrunners has a kit for the mustang?  haha

Their companies are failing because they can't keep up with cutting edge technology/design like the others. They can't bring out something that tops the imports. They have to produce a cheaper product to compete, and for a while, that cheaper meant quality in order to sell that quantity, which equaled the poor craftsmanship. 

 Toyota has american based factories, canadian, even south east asia. They set up a market to where they build only as much as they need, so they don't over produce items and lose money on it. It was a great way to cut cost, and keep profits up. Also due to outsourcing the work, it's cheaper than it would be in house. 

If only we could go lexus and order the car in whatever way we wanted it like you could do in Japan.

lol i did a report on outsourcing. for those who dont know what it is.. its pretty much using foreign laborers to do american jobs for uber cheap(we make maybe 15$ a hour... they make 3$ a whole day)

what happened to US automakers ?

couldent keep up with technology. tried to hard to cut corners in productions, thus putting out poor quality items, started to lose money, had to cut workers / cost, workers got mad, stike, they got fired, the company outsourced everything. the end.

bad desicions is what happened .

wiht the 300 cars
magnum
new camaro
the other one that is a retro commign back
saturn sky
solstice

only reason why these cars are good.. its pretty much cause it appeals to the eye of the consumer, and they just slap a big v8 in them. they could not make up any new ideas and had to look back at what worked.(the muscle car era) personaly... these cars, the magnum, 300 and what not im tired of freakin seeing... its like the new civic bandwagon, every just puts big rims on them. puts air backs, color match the wheels, or get super ugly wheels....big whoop. sorry to those who owns them. its only my opinion not a fact. so dont come egg my house, or tp my house. or shoot me up.

and most GM cars are now made in Mexico... so its really "used to be US automakers"

Cash Rules Everything.

and poeple losing jobs doesent have anything to do with companies pushign out horrible products. people lossing jobs affects the economy and crap.

(if i am wrong on some parts of what i said, please dont yell at me....im just a jobless asshole XD)

Toyota is now in the lead over GM and I don't think anyones is going to top them for a very long time....

cause most are crap, they dont last long, look ugly and many are poor performers. dodge aint bad but ford and chevy have gone unamerican now too. people saw what the japs do in the 1970's and they keep coming for more with them and the germans

hmmm, and Subaru must have hired an ex-Kia designer this time. first the Alfa guy and now the cars look like they were built in Korea. We can't blame everything on America anymore. Nissan Versa is French etc etc. goofy looking car coming from everywhere. But it's about time GM gets some style into their cars. Bob Lutz finally got those ugly cars phased out.

[QUOTE=JDMJim;106252]Does Isuzu exist? Oh yeahthey make copies of GMC trucks.[/QUOTE]

Actually Isuzu focuses more on engineering and sales of engines, as well as commercial vehicles at the moment. The chassis of the Colorado/Canyon was designed by Isuzu, while GM did the drivetrain.

Funny that you mention them, I'd completely forgotten about the Axiom (because it was never sold in Canada). I kinda liked that SUV.

What WENT Wrong??
    Unions inflated the wage and increased the arrogance of the US auto worker and auto maker. 

What CONTINUES to go wrong?
      Health Benefits for all those Union workers eat up HUGE portions of potential profits.  On the actual car side of it I have two words......FIT and FINISH.

[quote=BLACKonBLACK98;105342]i agree. us cars are making a comeback imo. look at chrystler who was about a year away from being shut down completely a couple years ago. gm had to sell their cars at a loss for a while just to recoupe some money, but they're doin ok now. ford... i don't know about them.[/quote]

I also agree.  I have to say there are some really nice cars from US companies lately, with more on the horizon.  I like several of Ford's offerings, hell, even the new Malibu looks decent and I don't generally like Chevy / GM cars.  Chrysler benefited from the MBZ merger and have some great rides too, wonder how that might change now that MBZ sold them though.