Who wants to go to Heaven?? Check this..

So this site I found from another forum sells reserved spots into heaven and guarantees it. [url]www.reserveaspotinheaven.com[/url] offers travel packs to get people into heaven. The about and faq pages are pretty interesting. :shrug:

What a Scam

[QUOTE=bOosty.ViP;107355]What a Scam[/QUOTE]

that some people will probably fall for :shrug:

Everybody wants to go to heaven but nobody wants to die lol

:biggthumpup:  To who ever is cashing in on this

Wow, he's reliving the days of when the catholic church sold hail mary's and penance's and revocation of sins.

Hahaha @ Caoboy..I was thinking the same thing!  Hahahahaha!
This isn't any new concept...just someone taking advantage of the gula[I]bulls[/I] and gula[I]calfs[/I]!

im all for respecting people's religion cuz i have my strong views and everyone has theirs. i didn't click on this link, nor did i need to. no person can get you into heaven.

[quote=ricky cash;107556]im all for respecting people's religion cuz i have my strong views and everyone has theirs. i didn't click on this link, nor did i need to. no person can get you into heaven.[/quote]

Do you go to church? If so, why?

i do but then again, going to church isnt going to save me. i go cuz i focus better than being at my house or in the open. i aint judging anybody who does or doesn't attend church.
 
why do you ask?

No person can get you into a fictitious place, that was CREATED BY people...yes, people and no, not a real place.  I am not against religion, it's good for some people...but I have self control and morals to keep me good.

"I had a dream i could buy my way to heaven, when i awoke i spent that on a necklace. I told god il be back in a second, man its so hard not to act reckless"


I respect everyones religion, just respect me for not having a religion. =]


I have a feeling this thread is going to turn into a religious debate. haha

Wait until Kayne hears that he was wrong and he can buy his way in...:dance:

to each their own. please dont turn it into a debate

I find it amazing at how fast hardcore religious people are in pressuring others to follow their faith, yet the atheist and agnostic folks do the same. One thing's for certain, many folks seem to easily see the stick in another's eye yet they can never seem to see the bigger one in their own. Hypocrisy and ignorance is NOT bliss.
 
Someone goes to church, someone doesn't. One says you should, one says you shouldn't or "don't have to." One asks why, one makes judgemental statements. Before this thread turns in a wrong direction please keep one thing in mind; don't try rubbing YOUR (generally speaking) beliefs in other's faces and stop asking questions. If there's something you are unsure about or would like to inquire more into, figure the shit out on your own.
 
Now, regardless of what stance one may take, I'm 99.9% sure most people believe that that Reserve-A-Spot in Heaven nonsense is outrageous garbage!

I don't believe in religion. I'm sure that probably makes a lot of people mad. I also (take this with a grain of salt) don't understand how people DO believe in it. I wasn't raised going to church, but I have been forced to go ( my mom is back and forth on whether she believes in god or not) and I sat there and was listening to the pastor preach the bible, and well, my take on it is  it's just common sense things that are said in it. It's a book about 'doing the right thing'. 

 The irony in it is the church back in history took a huge advantage of this and pushed it around saying you are going to hell unless you do this or that, and buy these things and  you won't go to hell etc. 

I guess between this which was taught in history, and taking philosophy classes like reasoning, and ethics, and general philosophy where Socrates basically stated that people shouldn't follow religion due to the fact that the gods were no better than man, and sometimes worse, it's just taught me that there's not a real religion that you can 'believe in' because that's all it is, believing in something. 

I also don't understand how people believe in ghosts, psychics, fortune telling, fortune cookies, Nigerian scammers who claim they love you....the list goes on and on. 

Don't hate me, it's just my take on things.

[QUOTE=Caoboy;108645] it's just [B]OUR[/B] take on things.[/QUOTE]+1

[quote=elpresidente;108026]No person can get you into a fictitious place, that was CREATED BY people...yes, people and no, not a real place.  I am not against religion, it's good for some people...but I have self control and morals to keep me good.[/quote]
i <3 you mike
i was going to say the same thing

Oh boy. I was hanging out at a local skatepark with a couple friends a while ago. Some guy came from the church and was handing out free bottles of water. It was a nice and thoughtful gesture on his and the churches part. He asks me out of nowhere if I know the Ten Commandments. I named about 5 and had forgotten the other few. I wish I could have remembered the other 5 because this guy then started lecturing me on Jesus. Apparently, I'll go to hell if I'm not saved, and I'm supposed to be reading some gigantic book right now. Screw that.

Next time I'll just tell him I spent $20 and got my own spot in Heaven.

[quote=Caoboy;108645]I don't believe in religion. I'm sure that probably makes a lot of people mad. I also (take this with a grain of salt) don't understand how people DO believe in it. I wasn't raised going to church, but I have been forced to go ( my mom is back and forth on whether she believes in god or not) and I sat there and was listening to the pastor preach the bible, and well, my take on it is it's just common sense things that are said in it. It's a book about 'doing the right thing'. 
 
The irony in it is the church back in history took a huge advantage of this and pushed it around saying you are going to hell unless you do this or that, and buy these things and you won't go to hell etc. 
 
I guess between this which was taught in history, and taking philosophy classes like reasoning, and ethics, and general philosophy where Socrates basically stated that people shouldn't follow religion due to the fact that the gods were no better than man, and sometimes worse, it's just taught me that there's not a real religion that you can 'believe in' because that's all it is, believing in something. 
 
I also don't understand how people believe in ghosts, psychics, fortune telling, fortune cookies, Nigerian scammers who claim they love you....the list goes on and on. 
 
Don't hate me, it's just my take on things.[/quote]
 
Who gives a shit what your or Mike's take is on religion? Did you two not even read what the hell I said? Why are you turning this into a "I believe in religion" or "I don't believe in religion because of this....blah blah blah" thread? Was it not originally a thread about a whack-ass website?
 
And second of all, being closed-minded about "issues" is fucking ignorant. Regardless of whether or not you truly believe in religion, or otherwise, you shouldn't be pushing that shit on others. Do you see any Christians, Muslims, Jews, etc. coming in here trying to claim that God is factual and pushing it on you guys? No. But the time when you (and I use the term "you" loosely) do encounter these religious people you sit there and ridicule them yet they have no right to ridicule you or you consider them "stupid" for ridiculing you because everyone should know religion is a farce. In my eyes, it's a fucking two-way street. My best friend just graduated with his Master's in Philosophy and is now an adjunct professor working on his Ph.D. and is agnostic....and he has one question...
 
It's obvious that, for the most part, we cannot prove the existence of God and this is where "faith" comes in. However, do you atheists have any true 110% proven factual evidence that God, on the other hand, does not exist?
 
Regardless of your stance on religion, if you come in here and keep trying to prove to everyone and "preaching" to everyone that religion and God is a farce, you are no better than those hardcore evangelists on TV who are urgently trying to do otherwise.

<3

I was raised in a Christian family and pretty much everyone in my family (aunts, uncles, cousins, etc) go to church regularly. I on the other hand do not. I have researched and studied, etc on the true factual, historical proveable origins of the Christian religion and it, like every large establishment in the history of the world pretty much, has been formed around 'stretches' of the truth, lies, made up 'facts', etc to keep it going, prospering and to try and ensure that it stays that way. I personally do not believe in the Christian religious organization as it stands today. It is in most ways as corrupt as the Jewish Temple of Jerusalem (which is historically proven to be the most profitable religous establishment of it's time throughout all of Roman controlled lands) and will stay as such until the masses of it's believers take the time to search for real answers and not blindly follow what they are taught and told. Even though I know the basis for my original faith was founded on constructed ideas put forth by the Christian religion, I'm still not convinced there is no God. While I may not believe in Jesus Christ as the son of God, I in no way think there is no higher power. And no athiest can prove otherwise which is just as much reason to believe than to not believe.

PS: That wesbite is wack yo.

[quote=gmckey;108863]Even though I know the basis for my original faith was founded on constructed ideas put forth by the Christian religion, I'm still not convinced there is no God. While I may not believe in Jesus Christ as the son of God, I in no way think there is no higher power. And no athiest can prove otherwise which is just as much reason to believe than to not believe.[/quote]
 
What you said here sounds very similar to "Pascal's Wager" where Blaise Pascal stated:
 
"...it is a better "bet" to believe that God exists than not to believe, because the expected value of believing (which should be assessed as infinite) is always greater than the expected value of not believing."
 
[B]I forgot exactly how Pascal states his theory but I did some research:[/B]
According to Pascal, the existence or non-existence of God is not provable by human reason, since the essence of God is "infinitely incomprehensible". Since reason cannot decide the question, one must "wager", either by guessing or making a leap of faith. To expand further, you can look at Pascal's Wager in this aspect:
 
You live as though God exists (WIN/WIN SITUATION).
[LIST]
[*]If God exists, you go to heaven: your gain is infinite.
[*]If God does not exist, you gain nothing & lose nothing.[/LIST]You live as though God does not exist (LOSE/WIN SITUATION). 
[LIST]
[*]If God exists, you go to hell: your loss is infinite.
[*]If God does not exist, you gain nothing & lose nothing.[/LIST]

[QUOTE=|crash|™;108853]Who gives a shit what your or Mike's take is on religion? Did you two not even read what the hell I said? Why the hell are you turning this into a "I believe in religion" or "I don't believe in religion because of this....blah blah blah" thread? Was it not originally a thread about a whack-ass website?
 
And second of all, being closed-minded about "issues" is fucking ignorant. Regardless of whether or not you truly believe in religion, or otherwise, you shouldn't be pushing that shit on others. Do you see any Christians, Muslims, Jews, etc. coming in here trying to claim that God is factual and pushing it on you guys? No. But the time when you (and I use the term "you" loosely) do encounter these religious people you sit there and ridicule them yet they have no right to ridicule you or you consider them "stupid" for ridiculing you because everyone should know religion is a farce. In my eyes, it's a fucking two-way street. My best friend just graduated with his Master's in Philosophy and is now an adjunct professor working on his Ph.D. and is agnostic....and he has one question...
 
It's obvious that, for the most part, we cannot prove the existence of God and this is where "faith" comes in. However, do you atheists have any true 110% proven factual evidence that God, on the other hand, does not exist?
 
Regardless of your stance on religion, if you come in here and keep trying to prove to everyone and "preaching" to everyone that religion and God is a farce, you are no better than those hardcore evangelists on TV who are urgently trying to do otherwise.[/QUOTE]
Uhm...okay.  Can you tell me that pink flying hippos exist?  I mean I can't prove they don't..so does that mean it's possible?  See how that thought process can be used for anything...like anything at all.  I just chose to use something very outlandish as my example.
I was raised by a Professor from a theological seminary (who was also a minister), baptized, confirmed, etc.  I guess it backfired since my mind is non-stop.  I always question things, I always break things down, and I learned more than I was supposed to I gather.  He knows how I feel and commends me for making up my own mind.  The only person who it seems wants to make this thread turn is you.  Threads can start as one thing and turn into another..why are you being so brash and using the language you are?  It's okay to believe one thing or believe another.  I even stated that in THIS THREAD..did you even read it?  Here, I'll quote myself:
[QUOTE]I am not against religion, it's good for some people...but I have self control and morals to keep me good.[/QUOTE]
So you see, I'm not saying people shouldn't make up their own minds...I'm VERY open minded, maybe there lies the issue.  Just be civil about it as I'm being.  There's no need to get riled up.

OK Mr. Preacher. I do believe that you yourself have turned this into a one sided, hateful debate. 

I'm not an atheist.  I don't not celebrate holidays, as most are religious in some way. BUT I don't celebrate them as they were originally intended. Also, I think most can agree that they also don't celebrate the holidays as they were intended. 

My take on things, due to believing in factual science, is that you are born, you live, and you die. Take life as it is, and don't look forward to a next life, as there is none. 

K? You don't need to get all pissy with me, cursing at me, and in not complying with your religious standards. Wasn't there something said about 'Do unto others as you wish done to you' or something?

I never once said that I sit there and call them stupid, and ridicule them, as you are trying to do to me. 

What I said was, I don't understand how those who have faith, believe in something non existent.  I don't go out and persecute people on their beliefs, yet, as seen in another thread, Mormons,  Jehovah's Witnesses, Christians, etc all go out and preach on the teachings of god and ask you to convert to their religion.

You don't see atheist's going around and preaching that god doesn't exist now do you?

Since it's already been turned into a debate, please, your rebuttal.

Also, please try to keep it civil, you might lose your rights as a moderator again.

(edit, as mike has responded, this is for you crash)

[quote=elpresidente;108876]Uhm...okay. Can you tell me that pink flying hippos exist? I mean I can't prove they don't..so does that mean it's possible? See how that thought process can be used for anything...like anything at all. I just chose to use something very outlandish as my example.
I was raised by a Professor from a theological seminary (who was also a minister), baptized, confirmed, etc. I guess it backfired since my mind is non-stop. I always question things, I always break things down, and I learned more than I was supposed to I gather. He knows how I feel and commends me for making up my own mind. The only person who it seems wants to make this thread turn is you. Threads can start as one thing and turn into another..why are you being so brash and using the language you are? It's okay to believe one thing or believe another. I even stated that in THIS THREAD..did you even read it? Here, I'll quote myself:
 
So you see, I'm not saying people shouldn't make up their own minds...I'm VERY open minded, maybe there lies the issue. Just be civil about it as I'm being. There's no need to get riled up.[/quote]
 
Yes, I've read your statement many times over. Yet I see only one thing, you state that you are "not against religion" yet you seem to make it a point to make "fun" of it. Before I even jumped in, you had made what, two statements just degrading the beliefs in religion. And obviously, the "professor from a theological seminary" didn't perform well enough since you obviously went astray.
 
The term "too much of anything will kill you" is very true. If you keep questioning too many things in life and not just accepting things for the way they are it will eventually catch up with you.
 
So as vast as our galaxy is, can you say that there aren't other "beings" out there inhabiting different parts of the universe on different planets? Who's to say that there aren't pink flying hippos? If there are, then someone's got a sense of humor!

Also, answer me this. If people go to hell for not believing in god, or they do bad things, what happened to all the people BEFORE religion existed?

Also, what about the fact that there are other religions? 

What about the pagans (greeks and romans and Mesopotamians) with their  demi  gods and  multiple god religions?

What happened to all these people? Did they all get sent to a hell that wasn't created and didn't exist yet? How is that possible?

[QUOTE=|crash|™;108872]
You live as though God exists (WIN/WIN SITUATION).
[LIST]
[*]If God exists, you go to heaven: your gain is infinite.
[*]If God does not exist, you gain nothing & lose nothing.[/LIST]You live as though God does not exist (LOSE/WIN SITUATION). 
[LIST]
[*]If God exists, you go to hell: your loss is infinite.
[*]If God does not exist, you gain nothing & lose nothing.[/LIST][/QUOTE]
This wager is flawed..since the rules of it remain in the "human realm".   As Pascal states God is "infinitely incomprehensible"...so if that is true..how can we possibly know what is what and what decides what?  What if I stated that if you believe in (lets use it as a silly example again) pink flying hippos you'll be enlightened supremely after death and if you don't you'll just completely vanish into cold blackness for eternity.  I mean...I'm one man, Pascal was one man.  We are human and therefor bounded by the human realm.  If I had enough followers/believers then how would you beg to differ?  Just making a point for arguments sake.

[quote=Caoboy;108878]OK Mr. Preacher. I do believe that you yourself have turned this into a one sided, hateful debate. 
 
I'm not an atheist. I don't not celebrate holidays, as most are religious in some way. BUT I don't celebrate them as they were originally intended. Also, I think most can agree that they also don't celebrate the holidays as they were intended. 
 
My take on things, due to believing in factual science, is that you are born, you live, and you die. Take life as it is, and don't look forward to a next life, as there is none. 
 
K? You don't need to get all pissy with me, cursing at me, and in not complying with your religious standards. Wasn't there something said about 'Do unto others as you wish done to you' or something?
 
I never once said that I sit there and call them stupid, and ridicule them, as you are trying to do to me. 
 
What I said was, I don't understand how those who have faith, believe in something non existent. I don't go out and persecute people on their beliefs, yet, as seen in another thread, Mormons, Jehovah's Witnesses, Christians, etc all go out and preach on the teachings of god and ask you to convert to their religion.
 
You don't see atheist's going around and preaching that god doesn't exist now do you?
 
Since it's already been turned into a debate, please, your rebuttal.
 
Also, please try to keep it civil, you might lose your rights as a moderator again.
 
(edit, as mike has responded, this is for you crash)[/quote]
 
Nowhere in my rants and raves have I stated that I had any sort of "reglious standards," thus you are assuming and not listening with an open mind. I'm not pushing any one side towards you or anyone else, read carefully. Comprehension is crucial.
 
And you asked if I see atheist's going around and preaching that God does not exist...yes, I do. It's even written in magazines such as Science Weekly where two scientists (one Christian, and the other not) were going head to head on the issue of God. And guess what? The atheist was coming off way harder than the "religious" scientist was. And a lot of atheism is being pushed onto the scene subliminally, just as much as religious people are doing the same. As I said before and I'll say it again, it's a two-way street.
 
You are still being ignorant in saying that you don't see any logical reasoning behind people having "faith"...who are you to say that they did not experience some divine epiphany or revelation in their lives? What someone experiences, you may never will. That's what makes each of us different.
 
And don't ever attempt to attack me personally about me losing my moderator privileges as that is no place for you talk about so freely. And to be honest, I wouldn't give two shits about that as I almost never get on here except to help out once in a while and sometimes delve into the occassional debate. What we're discussing should have nothing to do with anyone's "status." This is a right we're all entitled to. OPINIONS. I can't believe you try to get at me by bringing up the past...LOL. HOW LOW!

[quote=Caoboy;108880]Also, answer me this. If people go to hell for not believing in god, or they do bad things, what happened to all the people BEFORE religion existed?
 
Also, what about the fact that there are other religions? 
 
What about the pagans (greeks and romans and Mesopotamians) with their demi gods and multiple god religions?
 
What happened to all these people? Did they all get sent to a hell that wasn't created and didn't exist yet? How is that possible?[/quote]
 
To be honest, there are answers to those questions, too much of which I have no concern to talk about now as I'm getting very tired.
 
I'm not a teacher, just an opinionated individual. Just do some research at the library, talk to scholars, go on a pilgrimage, etc. I guess you'll find some cool stuff out.

The fact that you have faith and believe in religion defines that you have religious standards. The fact that you come off so harshly towards others who don't 'believe' in your faith, proves that you have those religious standards. 

The fact that you can't answer my questions shows that you don't have the answers, not that you are 'too tired'. 

The fact that those answers can't be found, shows faults in this religion. 

Science explains, with facts, of how and why religion is blind faith. 

The scientist you speak of, also 'came off way harder' with FACTS showing why religion is just faith.

Without faith in something that doesn't exist, the object doesn't exist. Without faith in religion, religion can't exist. 

If that weren't the case, then prove me wrong. Prove me wrong by showing, other than one's devotion and faith towards religion, that religion exists in other ways.

[quote=Caoboy;108890]The fact that you have faith and believe in religion defines that you have religious standards. The fact that you come off so harshly towards others who don't 'believe' in your faith, proves that you have those religious standards. 
 
The fact that you can't answer my questions shows that you don't have the answers, not that you are 'too tired'. 
 
The fact that those answers can't be found, shows faults in this religion. 
 
Science explains, with facts, of how and why religion is blind faith. 
 
The scientist you speak of, also 'came off way harder' with FACTS showing why religion is just faith.
 
Without faith in something that doesn't exist, the object doesn't exist. Without faith in religion, religion can't exist. 
 
If that weren't the case, then prove me wrong. Prove me wrong by showing, other than one's devotion and faith towards religion, that religion exists in other ways.[/quote]
 
My role in life is not to "convert" or "persuade" you otherwise.  No one did that for me, so I say, discover things on your own.
 
Of course, I do not have all the answers but I have some answers to your questions which I'd rather not delve into here on this thread.  Whether it's my fault or not (I'll try to be the bigger man and take the blame) this thread has OBVIOUSLY gone astray.  If you want to talk to me about this stuff and see where my opinions and faith lie, hit me up on AIM or through PM's.  I'm done with this thread.

[quote=|crash|™;108879]Yes, I've read your statement many times over. Yet I see only one thing, you state that you are "not against religion" yet you seem to make it a point to make "fun" of it. Before I even jumped in, you had made what, two statements just degrading the beliefs in religion. And obviously, the "professor from a theological seminary" didn't perform well enough since you obviously went astray.
 
The term "too much of anything will kill you" is very true. If you keep questioning too many things in life and not just accepting things for the way they are it will eventually catch up with you.
 
So as vast as our galaxy is, can you say that there aren't other "beings" out there inhabiting different parts of the universe on different planets? Who's to say that there aren't pink flying hippos? If there are, then someone's got a sense of humor![/quote]
Where did I "poke fun" at it? I merely used something outlandish as an example and also stated that it was outlandish as to not confuse or upset anyone. Listen to how closed minded you're being with this statement:
[quote]And obviously, the "professor from a theological seminary" didn't perform well enough since you obviously went astray.[/quote]
Did I go astray or did my grandfather go astray? I was raised by my grandparents due to family problems. I learned great morals and values from them, I learned about all sorts of religions...but none of them made sense to me since I'm a literal thinker and more into science fact. 
Maybe you should take your own advise:
[quote]The term "too much of anything will kill you" is very true. If you keep questioning too many things in life and not just accepting things for the way they are it will eventually catch up with you.[/quote]
Out of the billions of people on this earth I know so very few. I have been fortunate enough to have lived around people of affluence and global rapport. I'm not bragging, it's just a fact. I can't help what life I lived before I left on my own as an adult. None of us had much choice in that matter. So why even bring it up? I feel fortunate to have met so many great people through my family and work...why is that so bad? Why is it that anyone who knows someone who carries some kind of weight to their existence is instantly labeled that way? I mean it makes no sense to me. So if you knew someone who was an expert/master about pink flying hippos you wouldn't use their knowledge to assist in backing your examples? Not using them would be a waste in the act of passing on information. (BTW, I don't know Bill or Bob...but I know for certain who I was raised by and never disrespect them like that again.)
 
Speaking of those aliens..which I don't doubt exist (I mean who are we kidding, like you said yourself, our universe is so vast), do they go to church and wonder about "heaven"? I'm not badgering you..just making an example.

Just remember WHY the catholic church was so harsh towards science, and burned books, and condemned people to death for believing in science rather than faith in god. 

I do believe we are done.

[quote=elpresidente;108893]Speaking of those aliens..which I don't doubt exist (I mean who are we kidding, like you said yourself, our universe is so vast), do they go to church and wonder about "heaven"?[/quote]
 
WHO KNOWS?  MIKE JONES KNOWS!

Mike, you make some good points and I agree with you on most of what you've said. There's no way to prove religion exists, but, just as it impossible as it is to prove or disprove the presence of a higher power. Don't most if not all people submit to some form or another of one? While you have you morals and reasoning, for what do you live for?

Do you live to go to heaven? Then what's the point of living? Why not just die and get into heaven already?
 
Another thing, kind of off topic, but if holidays are so religious, what are Santa Claus and the Easter Bunny doing around them? I've always wondered that.

[quote=|crash|™;108895]WHO KNOWS?  MIKE JONES KNOWS![/quote]

OH SNAPS! HE WENT ON TILT!

Thanks for the sig material! :smiley-rofl:

lol

hey guys ive got some opinions Id like to express really quick...

your all so far up your own asses you cant even hear or see each other!
[IMG]http://i10.photobucket.com/albums/a138/Brandicus/head_up_your_ass.jpg[/IMG]

There was as much debate as there was bickering and banter.  Personal shots being exchanged between staff is unacceptable.  I appreciate you guys were able to lay it down and call it quits but im still suprised it went for as long as it did. 

to go back on topic, that website is totally bogus.  It takes a lack of good morals in general to cash in on faith.

cursing, not TOO personal shots, etc. should be acceptable as long as we don't get to the point where we're saying:
 
"Bitch, yo momma so fat her blood type is ragu," or "Wanna hear a joke? Woman's rights." or shit like that.
 
this life is full of heated debates and the occassional arguments and personal shots. we're all grown people here and we should know to take most of it with a grain of a salt. I don't give two shits about what someone says about me as that person does not determine the path my life will take. I don't think we should be "scolding" one another and slapping one another on the hand's for getting into a heated debate that only involved a few parties just because of a person's "status." A line needed to be drawn and we drew it. There are just some things each of us feels so passionately about and damnit, we'll try and defend it when time presents itself, right?...so sue us.

[quote=|crash|™;109053]cursing, not TOO personal shots, etc. should be acceptable as long as we don't get to the point where we're saying:
 
"Bitch, yo momma so fat her blood type is ragu," or "Wanna hear a joke? Woman's rights." or shit like that.
 
this life is full of heated debates and the occassional arguments and personal shots. we're all grown people here and we should know to take most of it with a grain of a salt. I don't give two shits about what someone says about me as that person does not determine the path my life will take. I don't think we should be "scolding" one another and slapping one another on the hand's for getting into a heated debate that only involved a few parties just because of a person's "status." A line needed to be drawn and we drew it. There are just some things each of us feels so passionately about and damnit, we'll try and defend it when time presents itself, right?...so sue us.[/quote]

You are correct on a few of your points but I completely disagree on a few others.

You are staff, you are here to keep the peace, not disrupt it.  I can understand getting into a heated debate and letting words fly [B]but you are staff.[/B]  You set an example to the other members of this forum, some self control I would recommend on your part before you go launching an entire thread into debate.


What gives us the right to enforce this websites rules when we ourselves cant adhere to them?

[quote=Brandicus;109061]You are correct on a few of your points but I completely disagree on a few others.
 
You are staff, you are here to keep the peace, not disrupt it. I can understand getting into a heated debate and letting words fly [B]but you are staff.[/B] You set an example to the other members of this forum, some self control I would recommend on your part before you go launching an entire thread into debate.
 
What gives us the right to enforce this websites rules when we ourselves cant adhere to them?[/quote]
 
I, in a sense, agree to what you're saying but debates are a part of life. Our politicians get into it all the time and hey, they run this country!

Yeah, but political debates are mediated. And the mediators don't jump into the debate.

[quote=firelizard;109102]Yeah, but political debates are mediated. And the mediators don't jump into the debate.[/quote]
 
That's not always true.

What else isn't true, is that you are not a mediator, but more of a regulator. You are like a manager of a company. You don't go out and attack a customer because of his views, you also don't attack another employee because of his views, at least not in public. Even if you did so in private, HR would step in due to the nature of how you handled this situation.

[quote=Caoboy;109445]What else isn't true, is that you are not a mediator, but more of a regulator. You are like a manager of a company. You don't go out and attack a customer because of his views, you also don't attack another employee because of his views, at least not in public. Even if you did so in private, HR would step in due to the nature of how you handled this situation.[/quote]
 
:biggthumpup:

There are many issues floating around, and a forum isn't the best platform for a discussion on anything, let alone anything to do with religion.  So here is what I offer:

1.  Religion, by definition, is man's attempt to get close to God.  Now, since man is flawed, as will religion be also.  So any discussion on how religion is "bad" is futile, due to its imperfect representatives (man).

2.  The core debate that many of these issues revolve around is Christianity.  Heaven, the Church, Hell, the Ten Commandments, etc.  These are all tied to one thing, Jesus Christ.  (stay with me)
The person of Jesus Christ is an historical man.  There are records beyond the Bible (which is an accepted historical text in and of itself) of his birth and happenings.  This places him in history as a person who actually existed (the same way we know Plato and Socrates existed).  Most non believing history professors will concede of the existence of the man, Jesus Christ in this history of the world.

3.  Not only did Jesus Christ exist, but he made very bold statements that are also historically corroborated. He said he was the Son of God, and that only by following him, would man go to Heaven.  

Now this is where there are two sides of the fence.  (Believers and Non believers)

Some people believe (Christians) what Jesus said, and follow him accordingly.  In following him, they attempt to live how he said to live.

Since Jesus is an historical figure (indisputable) and what he said is confirmed to be historically true, then the non believer has two logical reasons why they do not believe. 

     (1) Jesus was lying about who he was, and following him would not be the real path to Heaven 

     (2) Jesus was mentally insane (a lunatic) and saying things that have no validity due     to his mental state.

If this debate was kept to the issues, all would benefit.  Discussion is why forums interest us, right?

Anyone who is interested in more info on what I presented, check out these books:

Evidence that Demand a Verdict by Josh MacDowell 

A Case for Christ by Lee Strobel

Oh, and I wish I thought of the website to buy a spot in Heaven! =P

Jeremy

P.S.  If you don't agree with something that was stated, please say so...but also give a logical reason why.

David Copperfield...[B]real man in history[/B].  
*makes things disappear
*makes things appear
*Levitates Ferraris
*Floats over the Grand Canyon
*Walks through the Great Wall of China
*Escapes from Alcatraz
*[B]Can not make Jesus return[/B]

Religion, by MY definition, is to explain the unexplained. It has also been refuted by science, which actually explains more than religion can. The great debate, is like this. 

The world is something like 6000 years old. How do you explain dinosaurs, and carbon dating, to show that the world is 4.6 billion years old? 

Historical records don't get changed 1500 years later, and rewritten to satisfy another's beliefs. Take mormans, and jewish people for example, their 'bibles' are different. 

Now does this mean that god was running around to different people telling them different stories to write?

If god was here, and created the son of god, which the son of god in infact god himself (depicted as 'the father, the sun, the holy spirit') WHY didn't he just create ONE religion? Why allow SO MANY different religions to be 'created' if he's the one who made up the universe and man, and all that we see? 

WHY didn't adam and eve, or whoever the descendants of the people GOD created, just believe in him? Why did so many religions pop up over the millenniums?  

I mean, if god was sitting there speaking to them, telling them that he created them, and the world and the food for them and everything they see, what, did they just say 'ok' and shrug it off like nothing? Is that why god created uva and uvb rays to burn us? and created suffering and hate, and sickness, and war, and love, and meteors and earth quakes and making the sun hot or making it too cold in some places to live and created other religions to spark wars in his following and...what, was he just BORED? was he bored of being a higher being, and created the world for his amusment? I mean WHY create us at all? What was the point of that?

Why create something, then say hey, you need to be tested before you can come into my kingdom. You need to live in this world, full of suffering and hate, and you need to make those right decisions, even though you don't really know WHAT is actually right, and when you die, if you lived a perfectly good life, then you can come hang out with me. 

I'm going to live my life as I choose to, not as someone tells me to.

To elpresidente:
Since you don't clearly state what point you are making, I can only assume you equate David Copperfield to Jesus Christ.  Or, that Jesus Christ returning is equivalent to an illusion.  Could you please give some reasoning WHY you think that so I can respond?

"David Copperfield...real man in history" -- to say this suggests that you believe Jesus Christ and David Copperfield have something in common.  Please explain what you mean and why you believe it.

"Cannot make Jesus return" -- I agree, David Copperfield "cannot make Jesus return."  But, he never claimed to be able to.  Again, please explain the point you are making here and give some evidence as to why you believe it.

Bah.

If you ask me, religion isn't about proof, or things, or events, it's about faith. Either you have it or you don't, doesn't matter in who or what.

Bah, i just wrote a book but screwed it up.  Stop trying to change everyone with statements.  Open your mind and imagine what you want the after life to be.  if you choose to follow something that is almost universally accepted and related, fine.  But if you so choose to go the other way, your own way, and decide what life, religion, afterlife, etc is about, think about dreams.

You cannot prove that dreams are real other than squiggly lines on paper, and it is proven those squiggly lines last 6-12 minutes after time of death.  so thus, when you lose touch with reality, time, and everything inbetween that defines and outlines and binds us to what we know is REAL, who's to say that 6-12 minutes doesnt last an eternity.  who's to say that you could have a nightmare for eternity, who's to say you cannot have a pleasent dream for eternity?  Who's there to define what lies beyond other than you?  do you have to use other people's ideas and thoughts to define your own beliefs?  or can you yourself be imaginative enough to make what death has in store for you when you die?

go sit in your favorite place, think about what would happen if you were to die and enter a dream state based on your life as you know it, and right there, if you are worried about your tresspasses you will find hell, if you have no regrets of anything in life then you will find heaven.  if you have anything else come to you in your own mind on your own time without having to explain it or define it so others could understand, that believe it or not, is what you will expereience when you die.  Life is bound by reality, realitys are a series of moments bound by time, defined in your mind as "WHAT IS."  So in your mind, while the gates and fences are down, what you think, find, or feel IS, will be, like it or not.  I'm not saying that god is, or god isnt for anyone.  im just saying figure out how you want to feel, see, be, when you die.  DO NONT BIND YOUR IMAGINATION. DO NOT ALLOW ANYONE TO DEFINE YOUR EXISTANCE FOR YOU. 

If you so choose to plagerize in your head, thoughts that make sense to you, that others have conciously brought to you by any means, than take your apples and oranges and make juicy juice.  If you so choose to go out of the box, far into left field, and not even care to tell anyone how you feel, reguardless of how you feel they'll take it, then run with it, go, dont stop untill your 6-12 minutes are up after the proverbial clock stops for you.

Dont blame religion for the shortcomings of man, humanity.  Blame humanity for the shortcomings of itself.  Religion started as a tool to comfort someone for their loss.  to explain in a way thats widely excepted, widely relative to others.  Man is the one who skewed it into a tool for hate, crime, tresspassing on others vlaues, feelings, etc.  If you do not respect religion for the simple fact that it does help comfort someone who needs HOPE, who needs FAITH, who simply needs an explaination of what happend, so that they can sleep at night and accept that loss, than you need to rewrite everything in your mind b/c you have no basis for true happiness.  All you see is the crusades, facisim, religion ruling state in a bad way.  you see nothing but darkness and lack the thought process for a happy life.

Simply put.  Define it for only yourself.  Keep it to yourself.  Live with it, and I hope for everyone's sake, it makes you happy.

~AC

P.S. This wasnt really directed to any one of the posters in this thread, it was directed in all directions.  I dont know any of you, i respect you all, so all im trying to do is help.  (and if i wasnt so pissed that i had writen a masterpiece and then screwed it all up... i prolly would have a better "tone")

"Death" is pronounced when the heart rate reaches zero...oxygenated blood was already pumped from the heart to the brain..in other words..of course there is still brain activity.  That's called the human body...not god or religion.  Here is science fact for you:
[QUOTE]The brain is commonly believed to "die" after 5 minutes without oxygen at normal body temperature. This is a myth. Brains have been revived after one hour of warm cardiac arrest, and living human brain cells have been recovered after 4 hours and even 8 hours of clinical death at normal temperature. What really happens is that after 5 minutes without oxygen, chemical changes occur in the brain that cause blood vessels to swell when circulation is restored. Without special interventions, this swelling eventually stops the restored blood flow, resulting in the death of all brain cells hours later. The practical result is that a brain that is deprived of oxygen for more than 5 minutes is usually doomed to die within hours. But doomed is not the same as dead.[/QUOTE]
So of course the brain is still active...how do you think people still live after a heart attack when they are clinically DEAD?  Or pulled from icy waters after many minutes?

Take your own advice and stop preaching what YOU believe:
[QUOTE]DO NOT ALLOW ANYONE TO DEFINE YOUR EXISTANCE FOR YOU.[/QUOTE]
I actually agree with only that sentence...

You also forgot about "Do not bind your imagination" which in effect, is what many people have done with religion, not wanting to see other outcomes/ways of life/ways of death. 

You have also contradicted yourself in MANY ways, preaching about NOT allowing yourself to be held by others thoughts, yet your thoughts are binding in their own rights.

Pfft, is this how its ganna be? honestly?  I just offered a fictitious alternative to this argument, mainly to get people thinking that there are other things out there if you just let your imagination run.

Why not...
 
[quote=Caoboy]The world is something like 6000 years old. How do you explain dinosaurs, and carbon dating, to show that the world is 4.6 billion years old?[/quote]
 
As most of us should know, the first five books of the Bible, including Genesis, was written by Moses. We suppose God was not interested in giving Moses a scientific treatise on the creation of the world. The Bible indicates that God's communication to Moses was centered on the relationship between God and man and the rules by which God wanted man to live. Therefore, the creation account mirrors the content of the rest of the Bible, which centers on mankind and his relationship to God. The question, "Why would God leave out a description of the dinosaurs?" is a bad one to begin with. A more appropriate question should be "What would God want to relate to man about [I]His[/I] description of the creation?"
 
[quote=Caoboy]Historical records don't get changed 1500 years later, and rewritten to satisfy another's beliefs. Take mormans, and jewish people for example, their 'bibles' are different.[/quote]
 
History explains that Judaism, Islam, and Christianity all began as one religion as the beginning of each "religion's bible" (which in Christian terms would be noted as the "Old Testament") was notably related to one another. It was after the coming of Jesus Christ when the "New Testament" signified the divison occurring between the three groups.
 
[quote=Caoboy]If god was here, and created the son of god, which the son of god in infact god himself (depicted as 'the father, the sun, the holy spirit') WHY didn't he just create ONE religion? Why allow SO MANY different religions to be 'created' if he's the one who made up the universe and man, and all that we see?[/quote]
 
St. Peter was given the "key" (or permission) by Jesus Christ (through God) to begin the first church, which HISTORICALLY, is what we know today as the Catholic Church. It was many years after, when man made the conscious decision to break off from the church and begin all the other denominations we know of today. To say that each denomination is wrong would be a sin on our part as believers. After all, denomination is not the same word as religion.
 
[quote=Caoboy]WHY didn't adam and eve, or whoever the descendants of the people GOD created, just believe in him? Why did so many religions pop up over the millenniums?[/quote]
 
Adam and Eve walked with God and they did believe in Him, of course. God gave us the freedom to make our own decisions and made it known that He would not interfere in the course of our lives unless we truly asked of Him to do so which requires 100% faith with no questions. You might ask, well what about the great flood and Sodom & Gomorrah? It is stated in the Bible what God's decision had been after the fact.
 
[quote=Caoboy]I mean, if god was sitting there speaking to them, telling them that he created them, and the world and the food for them and everything they see, what, did they just say 'ok' and shrug it off like nothing? Is that why god created uva and uvb rays to burn us? and created suffering and hate, and sickness, and war, and love, and meteors and earth quakes and making the sun hot or making it too cold in some places to live and created other religions to spark wars in his following and...what, was he just BORED? was he bored of being a higher being, and created the world for his amusment? I mean WHY create us at all? What was the point of that?[/quote]
 
The "pain" you describe came about after "original sin" had come into play. Remember, if you ask all these why why why questions about God, you need to start asking why why why about the existence of the Devil and what kind of role he plays in our lives. To understand God is to understand Evil. If you already deny the existence of God, "why" should not be a question and Evil should not come into play for you.
 
[quote=Caoboy]Why create something, then say hey, you need to be tested before you can come into my kingdom. You need to live in this world, full of suffering and hate, and you need to make those right decisions, even though you don't really know WHAT is actually right, and when you die, if you lived a perfectly good life, then you can come hang out with me.[/quote]
 
Whether or not you believe humans are born with the knowledge between right and wrong would signify whether or not you believe John Locke's or Thomas Hobbes' theories of man.
 
Again, why ask why or question these things? Why place full blame of our pain and suffering on God? Why ask about the existence of God yet not ask about the existence of Evil? So according to your statement, God SHOULD hold our hands every step of the way, yet we get pissed off when the government decides to dive into our business or even pry or peek around to see what's going on on the public's end? We hate to be controlled, why want to be controlled? If God is there and did create us, why would He be so harsh and not allow us full freedom to discover Him ourselves? Beliefs in this world require a leap of faith. We must believe the sun will rise tomorrow. We must believe that the oceans will still be blue in the morning. Just as UN-absurd as it is to believe in those things, what makes the belief in the existence of God and Evil any more absurd than that? Why deny His existence when, of course, most of us may never be able to prove it until we die? And when someone may have very well experienced something we have not, we'll swear up and down that that person is crazy. What IF they are not? What IF they are telling the truth?
 
[quote=Caoboy]I'm going to live my life as I choose to, not as someone tells me to.[/quote]
 
And more power to you.

You guys are out of control....

Why wont you guys just let this thread die???

Its not even in the debate section...

[quote=Brandicus;111295]Why wont you guys just let this thread die???
 
Its not even in the debate section...[/quote]
LOL it was dead, but people keep bringing it back. OH KNOWZ it reincarnated!

Lets not forget the plethora of Greek Gods!!!  Weeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee!!!!

[IMG]http://www.windows.ucar.edu/mythology/images/greek_family_tree.gif[/IMG]

Uranus...

[quote=Brandicus;111295]Why wont you guys just let this thread die???

Its not even in the debate section...[/quote]

:saiyancrunks:  :madgo:  :spillbeer:  :ughrun: ....... :420yawn: